FP2 vertical table and support tear-down and reassembly - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    OK here you go:






    Cheers Ross

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    Ross, thank you. I agree that the four-sided wrench is better than the 12-point alternative. So I'll keep an eye open for one of these! Cheers, Bruce

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    Hey Bruce,

    My FP2 didn't come with one so I just made one out of some scrap bar laying around. Some 7/8 4130 tubing and a bicycle grip made it pretty comfortable to use.

    great thread by the way. thanks for documenting all of this. My own deckel needs a little love and whenever I can give it a break I'm sure I'll find this to be a very useful thread.


    Untitled by VertigoCycles, on Flickr

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Well i think it is because in reality the tool was there to do the draw bars...and the use of it on the quill is a bonus.
    My personal belief is that the designers (Deckel) never intended the quill to be used like we use a Bridgeport quill. That head is for "milling", the quill is for positioning with some "occasional" drilling. So
    having a drill press style handle was not considered something that was needed.
    Witnessed by the fact that Deckel did not provide any lube provisions for the quill..where on the Precision boring head , which is designed for quill work, has lube provisions to the quill, along with a different
    handle setup.(being longer, more easily repositioned having its drive through a hex, and retained on the quill feed shaft via a detent spring and ball)

    Cheers Ross
    Ross,

    You make a good point, and I've read your comments in the past about the quill being a bonus, and it does seem to be the case with your explanation to go with it. The no-lube on the quill is certainly a telling point.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    One has been "tool Dipped" with plastic on the handle..other has none. Not sure is that was a factory deal. Coating is pretty thick and harder than most tool dipping i have seen.
    Your tool looks the same as mine, with the coating. Yours looks the same as the one wrench has on his machine. Mine has had it's clothing stolen!

    Bruce,

    That could work if the size is right, just like any handle, you could even make one. I saw Ross mentioned the finish, but at first I thought it was an old Snap-On tool, and I thought to myself some clever machinist adapted it. When I saw that on wrench's machine, it was one of those ah-ha moments...

    I think Ross makes an excellent point about the quill, as he comments about using the Z axis...and using the quill rarely. I think they made it look like a wrench intentionally so that it wouldn't be left on all the time. At least most German engineering I've seen and am familiar with has not displayed such. It fits the definition of what I call a "Fritz Tool". Porsche has a good amount of Fritz Tools, which are needed to perform maintenance. This is merely a Fritz Tool to use the quill.

    But the odd thing about this handle is that if the quill was not intended to be used, why do they put the other knob on the opposite side ???

    Cheers,
    Alan

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    Quote Originally Posted by traditional-tools View Post
    But the odd thing about this handle is that if the quill was not intended to be used, why do they put the other knob on the opposite side ???

    Cheers,
    Alan
    Well i did not mean to infer that using the quill was wrong or not allowed...I am sure Deckel realized that the quill was going to get used..Think their intent however was that it was not to be used like a drill press.(or Bridgeport)
    If that was the work you needed to run, then you should spend more money and buy their accessory "precision boring head"

    The knob with the knurl is there to give you a good grip when you need to wind up the counter balance spring for the quill of course....
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Well i did not mean to infer that using the quill was wrong or not allowed...I am sure Deckel realized that the quill was going to get used..Think their intent however was that it was not to be used like a drill press.(or Bridgeport)
    If that was the work you needed to run, then you should spend more money and buy their accessory "precision boring head"
    From Deckel's perspective that would make good business sense, just an odd implementation, for German engineering. I like the view point of thinking of it being a Fritz Tool, if you need to move the quill...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    The knob with the knurl is there to give you a good grip when you need to wind up the counter balance spring for the quill of course....
    Cheers Ross
    Hopefully I'm going to get my machine home so I can understand some of these things better. I might be getting it home this weekend.

    Cheers,
    Alan

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    Another hour in the shop this morning, unsuccessfully trying to remove the Z lead-screw. This might not be worth it, as I think I can probably get things clean as they are. But here is what I tried:

    First I bent up the locking tab visible over the lead-screw nut here:

    img_2133.jpg

    Then I tried to remove the gray shifting mechanism. This is carried on two shafts, locked with a taper pin on one side and a setscrew on the other. The taper pin is threaded and I removed it with a long hex nut:

    img_2142.jpg

    Same method for the taper pin holding the Z-stop/trip lever on the other end of the shaft:

    img_2145.jpg

    I pried out the plug from the side of the housing (threaded M5 in the middle)

    img_2141.jpg

    and then removed the shaft and Z-trip lever

    img_2150.jpg

    However I couldn't figure out how to easily remove the hardware from the other side of the gray shifting mechanism, and decided to see if I could get out the Z axis lead screw from here.

    Continued next post...

  9. #48
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    I was able to get a 22mm wrench partly onto the lead screw nut (an angled ring wrench with a gap, like a giant brake-line wrench, would work much better, but I don't have one). So I rigged up a holder for that end:

    img_2146.jpg

    But then I wasn't able to hold the lead screw tightly enough at the other end. I'll try one more time, clamping a small vise onto the lead screw with two copper or brass plates to prevent damaging the threads.

    Removing the lead screw is mostly a matter of convenience: once that is out I can stand the support on the base and easily move it around for more cleaning. So I'll try a bit more. But if that doesn't work out easily I think I might just suspend it from the chain hoist and clean it while it hangs.

    I also removed and inspected the Z-axis nut. It has five 3.5mm oil drain holes, and two manufacturing defects.

    One drain hole leads to a small steel tube which should drip oil on the gears. In the photo below, the tube is pointing straight down. In the manual this tube is angled so that it drips off the end. One mine, it is straight and the oil runs backwards along the tube and runs down the bronze nut, rather than dripping off. So I'll modify or replace the tube.

    The remaining four oil drain holes are in two pairs of two. One of the four is apparently not properly aligned with the larger drain hole below, and so it does not connect: you can see three spots of light in the photo below, not four. I confirmed that extending this hole a bit deeper does not connect it with the larger passage below.

    img_2149.jpg

    Not sure if I will fix this either; I have confirmed that the small hole is deep enough, the problem is the lateral alignment.

    Later today I'll make one more attempt to remove the Z-axis lead screw. I suppose I can always make a clamp: take a piece of brass hex or bar stock, bore it out to 24.75mm, cut a clamping slot, then drill and tap it for some bolts. Not sure if this is worth the time and effort.

    To continue...

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    Clamping with a vise and copper plates didn't work to remove the Z-axis lead screw. I've thought of several further ways to remove it, but all of these are too "intrusive" for my taste. So I am still thinking.

    (1) Drill and tap a hole for a left handed M10 bolt in the end, then use the head of that bolt to turn the lead screw. But I don't have either a left-hand tap or left-hand bolt at hand.

    (2) Use a Dremel tool with a tungsten-carbide bit to mill a 1/4" or 3/8" square socket into the end of the lead screw, then insert socket wrench and turn. This would probably take me most of a day to do, and I wouldn't enjoy it.

    (3) Drill a hole in the end of the lead screw, insert my largest bolt extractor, and use this to torque the lead screw. But I am worried about deforming the end of the screw.

    (4) Drill a ~ 5mm hole radially through the end of the lead screw, in the root of the thread. Then use a hook wrench in that hole to turn the screw. Note that the hole could not go all the way through the screw, because then it would exit through the thread on the other side.

    For the moment, I've set up a worktable that allows me to conveniently work with the Z axis lead screw attached. This is basically a piece of film-faced plywood with a hole in it, standing on a Workmate. Here is what it looks like:

    img_2151.jpg

    Ross, some time ago you wrote in a different thread, saying " When putting everything back, remember that that there is a fill screw in the front of the vertical slide casting...remove this screw and fill the cavity with way oil. (ISO 68) Once filled the cavity will keep its level from the lube that goes through the oil fittings on the non operators side of the vertical slide."

    If you look at the previous photo, I can't find any "fill screw in the front of the vertical slide casting" as described above. However I think that there may well be a cavity, which is however normally filled using the oil nipple on the door side of the support. My manual says (translating from the German) "When putting the machine into service, oil nipple 1 should be filled with oil until the oil level is visible in the oil glass".

    I would like to locate and clean out this cavity, however I can't find any way to do this. What's more, I am puzzled the the following. In this photo (low resolution annotated, high resolution original)

    oilpassage.jpg

    img_2155.jpg

    you can see that in the lower open cavity, there is a copper tube which leads from the "ceiling" of that cavity and drips onto the central support gear and bearing area. In the upper cavity, in the right rear corner (as seen from this perspective) there is an "oil drain hole". At first I thought this simply led to the copper tube, but I've injected a lot of kerosene into that hole, and it just "disappears". I wonder if the mystery oil cavity is located in between the upper and lower areas, and the copper tube projects up into that cavity. So the idea is that when the cavity oil level rises above a certain level, then the oil runs into the copper tube and drips on the lower bevel gear.

    Do you know how this works? For the moment, I don't have the correct sized plastic tubes and fittings to blast air through the copper tube. So far I have not seen anything flow out the bottom of it. So I don't know if the copper tube is blocked with grease or I'm just not putting fluid/pressure at the correct point.

    Regarding this mysterious oil cavity, I am really puzzled, because when I feed fluid into the oil drain in the upper open cavity, it simply disappears. But I don't see how an oil cavity could have been formed in the middle of a solid piece of steel, with no sign of any access or opening. Have Deckel designers invented a way to put a hole inside a solid piece of steel with no openings of any kind around it?

  11. #50
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    The cavity i am talking about i believe is the space covered by the plate and gasket.....As to level..that is pretty small as i recall...being only deep enough to rise above the projection on the bushing of the "Z" screw.....
    Oil runs down from the feed passages above past the gears with clutches and finally to the lower section with the bevel gear and "Z" axis screw.
    From there the oil feeds past the screw bushing and down the thread to eventually lube the nut and bevel gear for the feed shaft.....
    Not sure on the copper pipe...might be getting oil directly form the cross drilling that commutes oil from the non operators side fitting to the sight glass opposite on the operators side...Think there are a number of passages off that long cross drilling.

    Looks like i was giving you info (on the fill plug ) from the next gen machine. My FP3 which is the next generation has the fill plug as did my FP2 "Active" machine....
    Sorry about the miss call looks to be a feature that Deckel added.

    Cheers Ross

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    As to tightening /loosening the retaining nut on the bevel gear....That bevel gear is a duplex gear...having a spur gear cut on its lower portion....make a tool to wedge the teeth of that gear against housing cavity wall to allow removal of the nut......If the tool fits to the root of the tooth of the spur gear it will cause no damage and provide a secure way to keep the gear from turning. I would make the tool out of aluminum as to be a bit deformable....Shaped sort of in an "L" with the short side entering the gear to the root, and allowing the long end to be used to lever the tool tightly into the tooth using the pocket as a fulcrum...
    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    Thanks for following this...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    The cavity i am talking about i believe is the space covered by the plate and gasket.
    Ahh, OK, I get it. But I am still puzzled where the fluid that I am putting into that upper drain hole is going. Tomorrow morning I'll set up a proper small hose to it, and pour enough alcohol or mineral spirits in there to either overflow it or to make it drain from somewhere...

    Not sure on the copper pipe.
    Tomorrow I'll figure out a way to blow compressed air through that pipe. Either I'll get a small hose over it or I'll make up a 90-degree "elbow fitting" from plastic that I can press over it.

    Looks like i was giving you info (on the fill plug ) from the next gen machine.
    No problem.

    As to tightening /loosening the retaining nut on the bevel gear....make a tool to wedge the teeth of the spur gear against housing cavity wall to allow removal of the nut.
    I thought about this but dismissed it for a couple of reasons. First, I have seen lots of pictures of Logan lathes where the main bull gear is missing one or two teeth, probably because someone tried to lock the spindle to torque off a stuck chuck by putting the lathe into back gear. So I am paranoid about stripping a tooth from the gear. Second, I don't have a wrench that I can get onto that nut. Do you remember what you used? The copper tube directly above and the shift mechanism on top block access. A split-ring 12-point wrench might do the trick or alternatively I need to dis-assemble the shift mechanism on the side away from the Z-axis trip/stop lever, so I can remove the shift mechanism on top.

    I need to make up or find a set of tapered plastic or copper or wooden plugs, about 3.5mm diameter, that I can use to block off the exterior oil holes so that I can blow compressed air selectively through one at a time. Any idea whatI could use for this? Toothpicks are too small, chopsticks are too big...

    I'd like to use carburator cleaner on these oil passages but am afraid that will damage the oil sight glasses. If I can confirm that replacements are available then I'll go ahead anyway.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Bruce, I just wanted to say I am enjoying this thread very much. Thank you for the great step-by-step details.

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    Here here. What a resource. I'm sure you are spending as much time documenting as you are doing rebuild but it is a tremendously valuable tutorial and having Ross there virtually is like getting a master class in Deckel. Thank you very much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    I need to make up or find a set of tapered plastic or copper or wooden plugs, about 3.5mm diameter, that I can use to block off the exterior oil holes so that I can blow compressed air selectively through one at a time. Any idea whatI could use for this? Toothpicks are too small, chopsticks are too big...

    I'd like to use carburator cleaner on these oil passages but am afraid that will damage the oil sight glasses. If I can confirm that replacements are available then I'll go ahead anyway.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Carb cleaner will for sure cause trouble on the "glasses".
    Here we get an aerosol solvent that is defined as being for "Sensitive" surfaces....Might be packaged by Wurth.....

    As to plugs....here at the auto parts store you can buy an assortment of soft plastic tapered plugs....
    Perhaps baring that i would consider Golf "Tees" as a possible plug source

    As to removing the gear/nut. Pretty sure i had the shift clutch fork and transfer gears out before removing the nut. Might have ground a box wrench to reduce the wall to ease fitting into the space...
    Pretty sure i had to reform the copper pipe to get access....If you get good contact to the root of the gear and the tool follows the tooth shape i don't thin you will break anything...pretty sure that is how i got mine apart.
    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Carb cleaner will for sure cause trouble on the "glasses".
    Yeah, will only use that if I am sure that replacement sight glasses are available.

    As to plugs....here at the auto parts store you can buy an assortment of soft plastic tapered plugs....
    Perhaps baring that i would consider Golf "Tees" as a possible plug source
    Both good ideas. If I can find some plastic rod of the right diameter, I might also just turn a bunch of tapered plugs.

    As to removing the gear/nut. Pretty sure i had the shift clutch fork and transfer gears out before removing the nut.
    To get out the shift clutch fork, I'd need to remove the splined shaft which connects that to the shifting lever. Do you have any memory of how that came out?

    If I can get the oil passages clear and the mechanism clean, and don't see mechanical problems, I'm happy to leave the rest of the hardware in place. As my dad often reminded me, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

    Anyway, tomorrow I'll make a concerted effort to blow compressed air through that copper pipe without disturbing anything else. If that's possible, I probably won't tear it down further.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post

    If I can get the oil passages clear and the mechanism clean, and don't see mechanical problems, I'm happy to leave the rest of the hardware in place. As my dad often reminded me, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

    Anyway, tomorrow I'll make a concerted effort to blow compressed air through that copper pipe without disturbing anything else. If that's possible, I probably won't tear it down further.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Yes, agreed!
    Cheers Ross

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    My goal today was to try and get the copper oil-drip pipe clear. Unfortunately this was not at all successful.

    To put pressure on the tube, I took a piece of 6mm OD/4mm ID plastic tubing and made a 4mm hole in the wall a couple of cm from the end. Then I super-glued a piece of 4mm brass rod into the end, to block it off.

    img_2170.jpg

    I then wiggled this over the end of the copper tubing. The idea is that when the plastic tubing is pressurized, the forces on the wall actually push it onto the copper tube and seal. The good news: it works really well and seals tightly around the copper tube.

    img_2175.jpg

    The bad news is that the copper tube appears to be totally plugged. I can not generate any airflow through, even when putting 6 or 7 bar (90 or 100 psi) of pressure on it.

    I would really like to know where the OTHER END of this copper tube goes to, after it disappears up into the casting. If anyone can shed light on this, I would be very grateful! I can't see any cavity or oil passage that lines up with this, so simply can't figure out what it might connect with.

    In the worst case I'll have to cut off the copper tube a cm away from where it disappears into the cast iron body of the support, work to clear it with a needle or wire, then clear or reproduce the cut-off part, then finally solder a copper or brass sleeve to rejoin the tubes together. But I'd much rather get it clear without having to cut it off and graft it back together...

    Changing topics slightly, I have gotten a 22mm open-ring 12-point wrench, and that is indeed a good fit on the lead-screw nut, and can be swung 15 or 20 degrees: enough to free the nut if I can lock the shaft.

    img_2160.jpg

    However to brace the spur gear against the wall with an aluminum L, as Ross has suggested, I need to remove the small gear stack on the right. The shaft is retained with a set-screw, that is easily removed (see photo below) and there is a snap-ring above the top gear, also easy to remove.

    img_2162.jpg

    The shaft itself is internally axially threaded M10 on the bottom, presumably for a puller, but when I pulled at it, nothing shifted, and I am afraid to do damage to this assembly. Ross, do you remember how you pulled out the shaft from this gear stack?

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    My shop hours today were more productive...

    I started off as I often do when I am stuck: I cleaned up. Since I started this teardown a week ago, I haven't stopped to put away the tools, clean off the work surfaces, tidy up, etc. So I spent my first hour doing this, also brought a high-intensity halogen reading-light into the shop so I could peer a bit better into various crevices.

    Then I had another go at at pulling the gear shaft described in my previous post - this time without any problems. First I removed the set-screw shown in the previous post. Over the top gear is snap-ring retainer, I shifted this up the shaft, so that the gear was free to slide up (and the shaft to slide down and out of the casting).

    img_2179.jpg

    Then I put a small and large washer on an M10 bolt, passed it through a large ring spanner (this acts as a lever) and threaded it up the bottom of the shaft. I then tapped the ring spanner down with a copper hammer, and this pulled the shaft free and out of the housing.

    img_2180.jpg

    Here is the shaft/gear/snap-ring assembly

    img_2181.jpg

    This now exposed the right-hand side of the Z-axis lead screw gear and nut. I made up an wooden wedge (oak) which fit snugly between the right-hand side of the spur gear and the wall of the cavity. This piece of oak has some white paint on the top, which makes it stand out better in the photo below.

    img_2182.jpg

    I then used a 22mm open-ring wrench to free the Z-axis lead-screw gear nut. The open ring is needed because the copper oil drip tube blocks access to a closed-ring wrench. Probably an open wrench would also have worked.

    img_2185.jpg

    (Ross, I was more comfortable with this approach than with the aluminum "L" that you described. The oak wedge was sized so that as it was drawn into the gap, the pressure on the two or three nearest gear teeth was almost purely radial. This did no damage to the gear.)

    Continued in the next post...
    Last edited by ballen; 01-05-2014 at 02:16 PM.

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    Here is the Z-axis screw and drive

    img_2186.jpg

    Surprisingly there was a spacer on the lower side, between the ball bearing and the casting. I could understand a spacer above the casting and below the gear, to control the mesh/spacing of the gear train, but a spacer on the bottom side makes no sense, since free play or preload could be accommodated with the nut. Perhaps the point is that the nut can only be adjusted in fractions of 1/6 or 1/12 of a turn, corresponding to the same fraction of a thread pitch, and those amounts are too large to provide the correct amount of preload or free play.

    At this point, I could finally turn my attention back to the copper oil tube. This time I was able to get flow through it, by attaching a 4mm id/6mm od plastic tube and then using a syringe to push fluid back and forth. In the photo you can see how the green tubing is pushed over the "drip end" of the copper tubing.

    img_2194.jpg

    I injected about 50 cc of methanol alcohol through the copper tube; the flow is slow enough that I suspect that the upper end of the copper tube is fitted with a small nozzle or flow constrictor. The upper end of the tube terminates in a cavity that is just on the right side (as viewed from the rear of the support) of the upper bronze drive shaft bearing. I can hear fluid sloshing in the cavity, and was able to blow bubbles in the fluid in the cavity by injecting air through the copper tubing.

    My next task is going to be pulling out the upper bronze drive shaft bearing so that I can replace the missing steel pins on the top, and hopefully also get access to the hidden oil cavity for cleaning and inspection.

    I also started to prepare plastic "plugs" to help me in cleaning out the oil passages. This will allow me to selectively block off the passages to control how air and/or solvent/cleaning-fluid is forced through the others. The various oil holes are about 3.75mm in diameter; to make plugs I am starting with 4mm polyethylene "plastic welding" rod. I heat one end to the melting point with a torch, then push it into one an oil passages. The soft plastic "freezes" instantly, leaving a "belly bulge" that should provide a nice seal. I then glue the resulting plastic button into a 4mm hole in a small piece of wood as shown. These will allow me to clamp the plugs in place, so that they are not blow out by the force of the compressed air.

    img_2178.jpg

    Some people cleaning grease out of the support have pulled out the aluminum "freeze plugs" to get better access. I might do this, have not yet decided. Since I have a lathe it would be easy for me to turn replacement plugs, on the other hand I would like to avoid unnecessary work.

    A question for all of you: what is the best "metal friendly" solvent for dissolving grease? Hot water and detergent are not "metal friendly", as they will cause rust. So I think options are kerosene/paraffin, gasoline, various types of alcohol, mineral spirits, turpentine, lacquer thinner. I should find out tomorrow if new oil glasses are available; if so I am not worried about dissolving the plastic. Otherwise I need to have a solvent which will not attack plastic, that rules out lacquer thinner.

    PS: the paint on the support is in bad enough shape that I am not particularly interested in preserving it, so "paint friendly" is desirable but not required.

    PPS: carbon tetrachloride and trichloroethane would work well, but in Germany their use is probably ruled out because of concerns about toxicity.

    More to follow later in the week...


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