FP2NC head variant?

sinusvag · Aug 24, 2016

Hello,

Long time since I joined and posted last time - been busy creating some kids.

I have the opportinity to buy a Deckel Fp2 NC with a bust Dialog control.

What intrigues me is a (the) photo I have at hand of the head of the machine. Blow up here:

If I understand it correctly, this is a flip head. As such, according to what I have been able to dig up, the head should be the high speed version - 6300 rpm. However, the seller insists that the machine is only capable of 3150 rpm.

Anyone have take on this? Could the seller possibly have misunderstood the control (dialog 3 according to him) and run the machine all these years at max 1/2 of max speed? Or are there two variants of this head.

Cheers

AlfaGTA · Aug 24, 2016

Is indeed a "flip Head" machine....the control has a rotary switch to select spindle speeds and they will only be marked form 25 RPM through 3150.....
But there is a dial on the side of the upper casting for the vertical head. This dial allows running the vertical head at 1:1 speed 1 (25-3150 ) or 1:2 (speed 2)meaning all speed selections
are doubled at the vertical....The dial is changed (shifted) manually and only with the spindle stopped.
Further you can go into mode 16 and select either speed 1 or speed 2 in the control which tells the control that when you program for say 6300 RPM the machine shifts into 3150 gear range to deliver 6300 RPM.....
Current owner is ignorant of how his machine actually functions.
Cheers Ross

sinusvag · Aug 24, 2016

Ross, thank you for your clarification! (I have been learning a lot from posts by you over the years!).

Well, that sorted, there is but one thing I am a bit queasy about re the mechanics of power transmission to the head:

The seller mentions the machine was noisy (when the control cabinet wasn't bust). By this he refers to the gearbox. Said he had to use hearing protection while using the machine (he used it for very small fine mechanical hobby stuff). Which brings me to the final question:

Is the normal running of an FP X NC (flip head) such that it is sort of generelly noisy when not cutting or moving, just spindle spinning along?

I know peoples hearing differ so I guess this is more of a "kinda" answerable question. Perhaps one should phrase it "do you wear ear protection while standing by such a mill?"

Hans

Milacron · Aug 25, 2016

sinusvag said:
Is the normal running of an FP X NC (flip head) such that it is sort of generelly noisy when not cutting or moving, just spindle spinning along?

I briefly owned a 1991 FP3NC Flip Head with Dialog 11 control. That one was new enough to have a Bosch VFD type drive so you could program any speed within it's range and it would automatically switch into back gear below 500 RPM. It was pretty quiet above 500 RPM but in back gear was suprisingly noisey.

As I recall some noise did come from the vertical head as it was very quiet in horizontal mode above 500 RPM. The Bosch VFD, power supply and axis drives on the later models are kinda neat in that since they were used on machines other than Deckel you can sometimes find NOS ones on eBay for dirt cheap.

What is not so neat is the Dialog 11 control, where if you need a "rebuilt" module for the control you can get into $$$$$$$.

Of course yours presumably being D4 probably is a gear change for each spindle speed model so my example may not help any..... but would be concerned if previous owner thought it noisey at 3,100 RPM it might sound like a high speed cement mixer at 6,000 RPM ! :willy_nilly:

AlfaGTA · Aug 25, 2016

In my experience the FP_NC's all make some noise...some more than others. Lots of gearing running there.....
There are more parts moving in the "Flip" head machine owing to the two speed upper gearbox that is not present in the earlier version (non-flip).

Vertical bevel gearing tends to be a little noisy at upper spindle ranges. The "Flip" head setup does have an improved lube setup on the bevel gear...gets more constant oil flow with
drain back to the gear case.....

Further..The pictured machine is an FP2NC.....In my experience they tend to be noisy....Has to do with the design of the horizontal spindle drive...The way the bearings at the gearbox final
drive are arranged is different from the larger FP3NC and FP4NC...Result is at higher spindle speeds the machines , in specific the FP2NC's tend to generate a high pitched squeal....
Often this noise can be reduced or eliminated by extending the horizontal quill (earlier design machines), however this is not possible with the "Flip" head machines owing to the fact that
the horizontal spindle is set behind the flip down mount for the vertical spindle....

I have had some success quieting these machines by adding a good dose of "Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer" to the gearbox oil, a solution i believe suggested by yzfr1pwr.

Noise aside, not been my experience that the noisy machines have any greater mechanical issues than the quieter ones....

Cheers Ross

Milacron · Aug 25, 2016

sinusvag said:
I know peoples hearing differ so I guess this is more of a "kinda" answerable question. Perhaps one should phrase it "do you wear ear protection while standing by such a mill?"

Hans

It is tricky especially not knowing what he might have been used to previously. I've got a Fanuc Robodrill here for example that at 20,000 RPM is quieter than a good condition Deckel at 500 rpm ! More similar is a Makino KE55 where one hears no spindle noise at all until about 1200 rpm and still very quiet up to max 6,000 RPM...but then it has no gearing.

AlfaGTA · Aug 25, 2016

No low end torque either if one needs it.....
Cheers Ross

sinusvag · Aug 25, 2016

Thanks to the both of you! This leaves me calmer.

Now, we'll se if the seller keeps his word to hold the machine until this weekend (some 150 km from me), and if it checks out alright. I'll get back with a photoset if I get it. There is also the mystery of the, according to the seller, non-existent horizontal spindle.

AlfaGTA · Aug 25, 2016

Horizontal spindle is hidden under the "Flip" plate that the vertical spindle mounts to....Loosen the 4 bolts (one at each corner) ..They should pop out via spring once fully loosened...
don't need to remove them....
Once the bolts are loose, grasp the vertical head at the spindle nose, pull out and up....the plate will swing up like a garage door carrying the vertical head with it....
The weight is counter balanced via a gas filled shock.....once the "door" is flat with the horizon, push to the rear...the entire assembly will roll back and nest on top of the slide.
Exposed will be the drive coupling for the vertical head (4 slots in its face) and below that, the horizontal spindle....
On the operators side of the "Y" slide should be a small micrometer collar with an internal hex..That is the hand feed for the horizontal quill....
Cheers Ross

rklopp · Aug 25, 2016

After flipping the flip-head up to reveal the horizontal spindle, be very careful sliding the vertical head back to the parked position. Sliding the head back actuates a shift lever hidden underneath to disconnect the vertical drive. You are hitting the lever with a really massive hammer when you push the head back, so be gentle and be sure the gear/spline teeth inside are aligned. Once all the way back in the parked position, you can use what used to be the lower right bolt to screw into the top of the ram to lock the head in the parked position.

My FP2NC flip head is uncomfortably noisy as at speeds above ~2000 RPM, and I do wear earmuffs accordingly. The noise is especially bad at 6300, 3150, 1600, 800... speeds, because the machine spent years at 6300 RPM spinning tiny cutters, and wore the gears. However, I think the main gear that drives the vertical head is also worn and noisy accordingly. When using the horizontal spindle at high speeds, including 3150, 1600, 800, 400..., the machine is nice and quiet. The reason is that the gear train runs in reverse when driving the horizontal spindle. The reverse sides or the gear teeth are unmolested.

AlfaGTA · Aug 25, 2016

Rich makes some great points to watch....
Some photos of the head flipped....

Clearly seen on the side view is the black gear range shift knob (S1, S2)

And just below that is the hand feed shaft for the horizontal quill, with its clamping lever....

Cheers Ross

sinusvag · Aug 25, 2016

There you have it! One more mystery solved.

I might add that documentation regarding the use of this particular mill is scarce. Apart from the FPXNC schematics I have found, there seems to be no operators manual avaliable for this machine. That is why I am extremely grateful for the info shared on these forums by you guys.

Cheers Hans

AlfaGTA · Aug 25, 2016

Hans:
Of course there is the real possibility that the high /low range shift is damaged or stuck so that at present the machine has only one working range....
Also be aware that opening and sliding the vertical head back may be difficult if it has been years since it was done, if ever....The guide rollers that
direct the slide back could easily be stuck or rusty....

Good Luck, keep us posted on your progress....
Cheers Ross

Milacron · Aug 25, 2016

AlfaGTA said:
Rich makes some great points to watch....
Some photos of the head flipped....

Clearly seen on the side view is the black gear range shift knob (S1, S2)

And just below that is the hand feed shaft for the horizontal quill, with its clamping lever....

Cheers Ross

How gauche not to have the official cover in place :stirthepot:

AlfaGTA · Aug 25, 2016

Did not show the cover by design..because in an earlier post on this subject i mentioned the drive coupling and i wanted it to show
so as to be congruent with the earlier posting .......In fact i purposely removed the cover to take the photo....

So here is a photo of the correct cover installed...hiding some of the features previously discussed.............................
I thought it was more important to show the OP who was asking what he should see when the head was flipped....The cover in this instance is pretty irrelevant!

Cheers Ross

sinusvag · Aug 28, 2016

Well guys, I went to see the seller today. A really nice man who I felt searched for someone to take care of his old iron well. Which I will. Deal was made, and I now have to plan the move.

Just to conclude this thread: without doubt, this has to be the 6300 rpm head, but I have not been able to verify the soundness of the mechanics in its gearbox.

I have also a ton of documentation which I will scan and post here - among which the manual for the amplifier cards from Bosch. Should someone have an operators manual in English dealing with the flip-head version, let me know (I'll scan and post the German and Swedish manuals I got with the machine, they are both for the older head).

Cheers

rklopp · Aug 28, 2016

Here's the cover I made for my FP2NC out of some scrap polycarbonate. If I had it to do over, I'd make it taller.

sinusvag · Aug 29, 2016

Really nice! And doable in a pinch. Will probably go for such one after I have sorted the electrical side.

AlfaGTA · Aug 29, 2016

Rich:
Nice job...reminds me of an "Acutron".....
Cheers Ross

spaxxomatic · Sep 26, 2018

Hi there
I'm new here, just found this page searching for info on the FP2NC. I have the same machine as depicted here, an FP2NC with high speed head. I have a question regarding the oil tube connected to the head - the prev owner told me to take care that no air bubble is formed in the tube, so that the oil circuit is not interrupted. Now I noticed that the said air bubble has formed in the top of the tube, but I don't know how to pump the oil so that the bubble will be displaced. The bubble will not move when the spindle is operating, any idea how to remove it?

Thanks in advance
Lucian

FP2NC head variant?

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