FP3NC Heidenhain TNC360 Help

I recently purchased a FP3NC retrofitted with a Heidenhain tnc360 controller, please excuse my ignorance first NC machine I own - others all manual(fp1 and fp2).
Controller was giving an error, which Heidenhain have since fixed. Apparently the eprom had been removed. They replaced and loaded the software again, luckily they had a backup, was a machine that they had done years ago.

I reconnected controller up again and get a bit further now, was able to start machine(fan comes on), but at the point where machine needs to Traverse Reference Points nothing happens when I press Start.
To add to problems the monitor also decided to pack up, trying to get it fixed - but no luck yet.

Looking at the servo cards, there are no lights except one green light on card number 038035.
Cards seem to have been worked on and dont look that great.

Is there anything I could try to get machine running?
Should the machine still come on if cards are faulty - did try removing cards.

Not sure if I should continue trying to fix current setup or maybe better to look at changing setup.
Maybe just change servo cards and keep controller - not sure if that possible.

Hard to offer any help here...
You have a rather unique setup (or close to it)
Being a retrofit some of the setup and specifics of the "PLC" will be the product of the individual who did the original retro.

Here is what i can tell you:
The original servos are relatively reliable, and rarely give trouble....they do use tachometers (DC generator) for speed control and that
can be a maintenance point, but generally not a failure issue.

The Bosch servo drive is standard Deckel FP-NC ...can be troublesome, but rebuilt spares are available from the usual suspects in Germany.
Servos and drives are matched and should provide good movement provided all are in good order..
Your setup (based on one photo) has the first generation of servo cards...not the most desirable but can be upgraded and likely repaired....

My first step would be to see if i could locate the shop/individual who did the original retrofit...That would be the best source of specific info on where begin your trouble shooting.

The single green light indicates that your power supply for the servo drive is working with no faults.
Think all the axis cards should also be green at this point...(control power on)
You will not get any referencing moves till you get all the axis cards working (green LED)

Really need a wiring print to follow this...but think with power on all should be powered....

There is one condition off the top of my head that will give this symptom....
Be sure that all the hand wheels (X,Y & Z) are fully pushed in and not engaged....
Cheers Ross

Also check that none of the Axis are at either end of their limit of travel.

Depending on the setup..think the Heidenhain retro does not use the limit switches except to signal the control to read the reference mark on the scale, or signal over travel ...Position is set via a peramiter value relative to the reference on the scale.(soft limits)
Over travel (hard switch) should cause an immediate E-stop...
If the machine has an E-stop condition, then the power supply board LED should be red....
Sort of eliminates the tool change pendant or any of the E-stop buttons...if the power supply is green....
But to be sure you need a print of your setup...
Cheers Ross

Thanks for response.
Interesting comment on hand wheels. My Z and Y wheels seem to be fine i.e. I can pull out and then move wheels, but on the X axis pulling in or out has no effect, if I move shaft (X) from other side then table will move.
All the axis though are hard to move I assume they are locked by brake from servo ?
Maybe I need to strip X hand wheel to see if anything broken/stripped there?

Still struggling with monitor, looking at maybe building a MDA/CGA/EGA converter to put a LCD screen in.

Did manage to get some documents from the Seller - and looks like the wiring print/s are there, not that they make much sense to me.


Thanks,
Paul

Striped X hand wheel side and seems like a cog has been removed that would engage/disengage with lead screw to move table. Not sure why they would do that but at least screw seems to be fine.

I feel your pain, Heidenhain is a very nice control but has an extremely steep learning curve, at least form me. I just had a machine down for several weeks, we are a small out fit so I did all the trouble shooting by my lonesome. There is very good documentation on the net (hard to find though). I also know several gentleman who are very good with Heidenhain, and very busy and not cheap. I will say though you do get what you pay for. If I can help feel free to contact me.
I run an itnc530 with 4 axi. There are 6-7 levels of operator access, depending on what you need to do all accessed by different codes. On the 530, you boot up, but turn on the 24 VDC, don't try to home thought just hit program then mod. The help and error menus are very comprehensive as well
If you have anything I might help you with just PM me.

Some feedback.
Finally got monitor sorted out.

I also got hold of an electrician who seems to know Deckel machines very well.
He established that there is no power to relay/cards, was able to supply power(short) and all Green lights come up.
He thinks there is something wrong with Heidenhain controller causing issue, but hasn't worked on Heidenhain before so wants to first study manual - he is also pretty busy with other clients.
Is there maybe something simple I could be missing?

Also out of interest he mentioned that he can repair the servo cards has done plenty before. One of the first machines he worked on.

Lots of stuff tied to the E-stop on those machines. How it is integrated would need some time with the wiring print if it in fact reflected how the machine
was actually setup to have the HH control.
Time to don your "Sherlock Holmes" cap and start tracing out the circuits. You know whats missing, work back and see where it is interrupted.

Be sure you have the tool change pendant connected....That should be part of the e-stop loop.
Good luck.

Cheers Ross

here is a link to TNC 360 service manual - TNC 360 SM

and also couple pictures regarding the e-stop circuit and PLC I/O test modes, that test mode should make fault finding quite a bit easier

Still struggling getting drives enabled, one thing I did notice is that the power card (when starting) first flashes red light - TRd( the top one ) and then goes to Green - is this maybe giving some error code ?

What precisely is on the screen when you want to home the axis?

screen shot would be good

When the TNC powers up, it has an internal relay that will enable the, well, enable circuit[after internal test you will usually hear a quiet click]

There is usually a power enable button the enables the drives


This is a retro, so it is up to the installer how to do this

The EMO string can be part of this, so you need to chase the EMO string, which is usually all EMO buttons, limit switches and can include things like low oil limit and spindle overtemp.

The electrician probably enabled the enable relay, powering the drive, so you need to figure out why either the control is not outputting an enable signal, or it is not being listened to.


first I want to see what the screen looks like when you are trying to home

First does memory test, then need to press CE button ( Power interrupted ).
Then gives message RELAY EXT. DC VOLTAGE MISSING.
Press I button and this gives power to Power card, can hear relays kick in and fan.
Power card has power.
Then shows attached image, but trying to home does nothing all cards no green light.
Can enable specific cards(axis's) by pressing relay that controls them and then trying to home that axis's still does nothing.

When by-passing Y axis's relay - head is moving by itself and giving gross positioning error D. If I push board in firmly and try again then wont move - so looks like some bad connections/dry joints on socket board goes into.
We removed the fixture boards goes into and looks like some dry joints there - electrician took that and all boards and will test etc.

From Deckel schematic for power and drive cards looks like there is also an enable signal sent to drive cards from power card.
Thought maybe the power card first going red then green is maybe some error?

I am not sure, but I think most cards will start in an error mode then go to ready, but I have no specific knowledge of this card

So it is waiting to home but does not enable cards. It is monitoring encoders[thus the GPE]

Is there a relay that controls the three relays that enable the cards?

Since the control is not showing an error, I am starting with the assumption that the control is ok, and a signal is not getting to the power cabinet somewhere.

When you reference the 'I' button I assume you mean a button that is 'enable'

What happens when you push and hold that button? Does a relay click again?

That would indicate that something[like the EMO string] is preventing the relay from staying on.

Do you have a schematic/wiring diagram for the control to drive to machine section?
do you have a proper operating manual?

Check the auto lubrication reservoir and that you have compressed air (if the machine uses it) as their sensors are often in the eSTOP chain

andrewmawson said:

Check the auto lubrication reservoir and that you have compressed air (if the machine uses it) as their sensors are often in the eSTOP chain

Click to expand...

air, yes some of them include air

No air on an FP3NC in the factory build...no reason for it unless your machine is fitted with aftermarket accessories that require air...Tool holder release and any factory 4th axis having clamps all release via hydraulics.


Should be able to hear the lube pump start up during the initial boot up. If the machine is in a cold shop might not hear the pump run (sluggish if the oil is cold)
Should be a low oil level detector, but if the oil is well above the low limit line on the tank that should be good enough ...If you can't hear the pump, crack the lube feed line right at the pump (under the side cover opposite the operators side) and verify that its making oil flow....

Should also hear the hydraulic pump make pressure and stop at initial start up....System is designed to immediately make pressure and hold it while the power is on..Will cycle form time to time
if there is any leakage (there is always leakage) in the main hydraulic pump check valve.

Pretty sure you should also have the cooling blowers on the large green cabinet come on as soon as the control comes on line...Cooling fans will not operate if the doors of the cabinet are open....

I have an FP2NC with a Heidenhain 420 retro fit and all the above is how my machine reacts on start up. Of course that is not cast in stone, your fitter could have done it differently...just saying how the factory
start up goes, which is pretty much how my retro fit starts up as well.

A Heidenhain guy should be able to read the ladder and tell what should be powered and when....Pretty sure there is a way to use your control to show you which inputs and outputs are switched and when it happens.
Since this is a hybrid....you need someone who is familiar with that control and how to access the diagnostic tools it has, as well as an understanding of what those screens are actually telling you.
Could save lots of poking about in the dark.

Cheers Ross

Got boards back on machine - Y axis's seems fine now - not moving when enabling relay.
But as soon as z relay is enabled power card jumps to error (TR), its a 038035 card, also one component getting very hot.
They replaced all caps on card, going to replace IC as well.
Does anyone maybe have a schematic for card ?
Also tried different drive cards(x,y) and same problem but putting z drive card in Y axisis is fine.

Your post is a bit confusing to me....
Don't understand the reference to the "Z" relay.
As far as i know all the servo axis drives are enabled via one relay....
Drives are enabled via the control sending a logic level signal (0-10 VDC) to cause motion once the drives are powered and not inhibited....

Is there a single green LED lit on the 038035 card?

If so, then that is not your problem....
Suspect you have a bad axis regulator board. (The regulator board is the one that is not populated with rows of power transistors)
Early versions of those boards can be problematic, and they are not always repairable....(038030)
The excess heat on the 038035 could be the result of attempting to power a bad regulator or amplifier board...

The machine will run with the axis boards pulled out of their connectors (do so only with power off)
If the machine will run normally on two axis for example having the "X" axis regulator and amplifier boards pulled ...and will reference the "Y" and "Z" without issue , then
work normally on the "X" and "Z" if the boards are swapped between the "X" and say the "Y" then likely (at least) you have a bad regulator/amplifier board...the one originally from the "X"
Further you can eliminate the amplifier board by swapping just the regulator boards....
Be cautioned..that there are two versions of both the regulator and amplifier boards..and they must not be mixed together...DAMAGE will result....

The two versions are: 038030 (regulator) use only with 038028 Amplifier (First gen boards).
047114 (regulator) use only with 047018 Amplifier (Later design)
They can be mixed within any machine but they must be kept in their correct pairs....
The late version is easily identified by having a second small piggy back card on the main regulator board,,,,,this small board is where the specific resistors for a specific axis servo (it varies) are fitted to simplify main board changing.

My suggestion if this is the case is to not muck about with repair sources that are not familiar with these boards, but rather contact Frantz Singer about securing a rebuilt exchange for the offending
board.....

Cheers Ross

Thanks for reply.
Yes Green light is on the 038035 card.
All regulator boards are labeled 038030.
Have tried swopping regulator boards.

I have attached drawings I got with machine - only way to get green light on drive card is to press relay.
Eg. K21 relay for Y. Z seems to be controlled by K22 and K42.
I don't understand much of drawings not very good at electrical side.