FP4NC available

Hey all, got something to throw out there. I have a FP4NC with D4 fliphead and universal table to rehome.

Bear with me on a drawn out explanation or skip this paragraph for specifics on the machine in the next. As my moniker implies I started out with a FP4A with the 2.5 axis grundig control and while that was around 15 yrs ago it should be clear that I am acquainted with poor decision making! I now have an FP4nc with D4 control and an nc rotary table. I had been wanting a universal table for years but couldn't quite accept the associated cost. Then a full machine with said table popped up for 3500 at the notorious HGR reseller in OH. I decided that having 2 deckels with different tables would be fun and worse case I would have a universal table and a bunch of spares. Well when reality set in post purchase I realized I didn't really have the space especially since machining is not my living so I shelved the idea and as with most impulsive questionable decisions, actively ignored. After paying enough in storage to have just shipped the darn thing I finally gave myself an ultimatum, I had decided I would render the machine a donor and have the table and some other bits picked off so it could ship ltl and and as for the carcass... In the meantime a universal table had popped up and a fellow here on the forum had expressed interest in a machine. It gave me thought of getting out from under the machine and just getting a table. It would remain a financial mistake but I wouldn't have the stain of deckel green blood on my hands. Unfortunately after some consideration the potential buyer decided the risk was more than he wanted to take on which I understand. So, here I am wondering if anyone else would want to step in? The machine is complete but has surface rust and staining from a less than ideal long storage. It came from Mahle whom I think of as a piston manufacturer but apparently they make a lot of auto stuff. Anyhow it was claimedly functioning when removed and looks to have been treated with dignity in removal which helps me believe but I am by nature less suspicious than is safe.

In short if someone wants to take on a ? FP4NC Dialog 4 fliphead with universal for $4000,let me know (I am eating the majority of storage as a self punishment). I have paid storage through the month but would like to have this sorted this week. Bit of a hail mary but why not?!

It says FPS on the side, so it must have been brought over from Germany as a used machine later, probably by Mahle in some bigger relocation. I once bought a FP5NC in Huntsville AL, that was also brought over used.
The DNC letters on the mode switch imply a very very late SW level.
Interesting.

Mahle is a first line company. Those normally (not all) take good care of their stuff, incl. getting FPS to take care of it in this case. They would likely also have kept it current regarding SW.
Once the machine reached the US this would likely have stopped, the machine falling into disrepair and sliding downhill. This is simply due to the fact that a specialized service place was not around the corner. A guy at Mahle in Germany would pick up the phone to call the service guy in 30mls distance. In the US that same guy might be surprised.

I knew a guy here that once a year would fly to Mexico to service Deckels and flew to Bulgaria to fix Deckels in a hangar working at minus 10 C.

My two cents worth.....
Have had all the FP-NC's from FP2NC through the FP4NC and for my money the FP4NC is the best of the lot....
Subtle design differences from the "2" and "3". Its just a bigger, stronger better version of the smaller models.
Flip head machine is likely to have the improved oil grooving and scraping that helps reduce or eliminate the vertical way galling issue.
The price seems good considering it is fitted with the 2038 table. and it being a Dialog 4 control.
Not sure i agree with Martin about it having very late software. Not sure the label on the control fascia tells the absolute story.
Both my FP4NC's have that same label and one was built in 83' (early) and when it cane to me it was not running the latest software, even though it came to me as a used machine from Deckel directly....Just saying.
That being said,Dialog 4 is what you want even if its the earlier software.
Machine is a bit rough as described with rust.....That would need to be addressed.

Cheers Ross

Nick FP4A said:

The machine is complete but has surface rust and staining from a less than ideal long storage. It came from Mahle whom I think of as a piston manufacturer but apparently they make a lot of auto stuff. Anyhow it was claimedly functioning when removed....

Click to expand...

I've bought a fair amount of iron from HGR over the years and every time I've asked for some history on any machine no one ever has a clue...thus I'm curious how you know the claimed functionality... all things considered, it does look pretty nice however.

As to the "surface rust"...that is better than the kind that floats above the surface

Milacron said:

I've bought a fair amount of iron from HGR over the years and every time I've asked for some history on any machine no one ever has a clue...thus I'm curious how you know the claimed functionality... all things considered, it does look pretty nice however.

As to the "surface rust"...that is better than the kind that floats above the surface

Click to expand...

Hi Milacron, fair enough on the functionality claim. That was from the salesperson so it should be taken with a several ton grain of salt. I too have purchased numerous machines (albeit fabrication equipment/less complex) from them and some were turn key, others had demons. As far as I could tell my salesperson never bothered overtly lying or obfuscating but I didn't really push on the claim of function with the "as is" addendum attached anyway. For any interested folks I don't want anyway expecting turn key. My thought when I bought it was it had enough of the right attributes to warrant gambling and that even if it needed boards servos rebuilt etc. it was worthwhile. I have already admitted to poor impulse control and irrational optimism!

Thank you to everyone chiming in. If no one takes her you are almost swaying me towards making room after all! If I did, what is the best approach to removing the "surface rust" without suffering "baby with the bathwater" effect on the ground bits?

Thank you!!

Nick,

My FP2 had similar surface rust from sitting in an unheated space and sweating. Luckily all of the way surfaces were in good condition. I removed the surface rust with Metal Rescue Rust Remover Gel. I painted the gel on with a paint brush then covered it with Saran Wrap and left it for several hours. Then I cleaned it up with grey (ultra fine) Scotch-brite using Windex as the solvent and wiping off the gunk with paper towels. I would then go over the surface with a precision ground flat stone. It takes two applications to get a nice cleanup. After the first application the areas with rust will still be dark grey.


I was embarrassed how bad it looked starting out and only thought about taking a picture when I got to the last surface.



This evening, I realized I never took the after picture so here is the same surface on the machine.



Here is the jar of rust removal gel sitting on the table which had been similarly rusty.



It did take a good bit of time and a lot of elbow grease but I am happy with the results. The Gel works well on the cast iron surfaces. I had the z-axis bar that holds the power feed stops and the corresponding bar on the operator side reground as being a steel piece they didn't look that great after rust removal. For small parts that you can submerge Evaporust works great.

I hope this helps,
Nigel

Nigel Tudor said:

Nick,

My FP2 had similar surface rust from sitting in an unheated space and sweating. Luckily all of the way surfaces were in good condition. I removed the surface rust with Metal Rescue Rust Remover Gel. I painted the gel on with a paint brush then covered it with Saran Wrap and left it for several hours. Then I cleaned it up with grey (ultra fine) Scotch-brite using Windex as the solvent and wiping off the gunk with paper towels. I would then go over the surface with a precision ground flat stone. It takes two applications to get a nice cleanup. After the first application the areas with rust will still be dark grey.


I was embarrassed how bad it looked starting out and only thought about taking a picture when I got to the last surface.

View attachment 301821

This evening, I realized I never took the after picture so here is the same surface on the machine.

View attachment 301822

Here is the jar of rust removal gel sitting on the table which had been similarly rusty.

View attachment 301823

It did take a good bit of time and a lot of elbow grease but I am happy with the results. The Gel works well on the cast iron surfaces. I had the z-axis bar that holds the power feed stops and the corresponding bar on the operator side reground as being a steel piece they didn't look that great after rust removal. For small parts that you can submerge Evaporust works great.

I hope this helps,
Nigel

Click to expand...

Thank you Nigel! I appreciate you taking the time. The results look amazing, better than I would have expected or even hoped for. Congrats, fine looking machine you have.

Nigel,

what is that vise in the third picture?

I have 2 similar ones that could never figure out the manufacturer.

Martin

Yes you are right, but it is confusing and I have to dig way deeper to get better data.
But consider that Dialog 4 did not come out until like 1986.
So if one bought a D4 upgrade kit in 1986 (as 90% did), this kit included a console faceplate with a 16 position mode switch and a DNC marking?
Even if DNC was not yet available? This was then SW-level 1.
By about 1988-89 our machines (2801,2803,2810) were then already discontinued with the D4.
Really a short life.
So when was DNC introduced? Possibly never from new. Only as a post delivery upgrade.
Also when exactly was SW-level 2 published?
Maybe old brochure will tell.

AlfaGTA said:

Not sure i agree with Martin about it having very late software. Not sure the label on the control fascia tells the absolute story.
Both my FP4NC's have that same label and one was built in 83' (early) and when it cane to me it was not running the latest software, even though it came to me as a used machine from Deckel directly....

Click to expand...

Cast iron which looks like it has bad rust can often be brought back to almost like new condition. I'm a fan of Evaporust if you can submerge the parts. See one example from me here: https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...ene-mills/derusting-tales-282562/#post2259970

Martin,
The vise is a Gerardi Modular 125mm wide vise. There are several makers of this type of vise. If it has a G engraved on the top of the rear bed way it is a Gerardi. If it is a GS there it is a GS vise. I don't know how to differentiate other makes or if parts and accessories are interchangeable between brands.

Regards,
Nigel

Thanks Nigel, that is super helpful. I thought I would never figure it out. It has no markings at all. It came with a mechanical and hydraulic spindle (ARNO).

IMG_1585 by Martin Peitz, on Flickr

On SW levels and DNC

The Deckel manual "SWII" from 8.87 has the title "SW retrofit kit parameters, 3D interpolation, screwline"

" What your Dialog control can do additionally with the new SW"

"With this retrofit kit to the new SW-level II the capabilities of your Dialog 4 have been significantly expanded"

The manual includes DNC (one page blurb).

So it seems sure that if you upgraded your Dialog 2 to a D4 after 8.87 you would get the DNC letters on the facia.
Before that date possibly not.

This does not explain why most D4 do not have DNC. Possibly they were selling the SW piecemeal to make more money.
Development must have been so hectic back then and sales very brisk.

Best I can tell there are 3.5 software versions of Dialog4- 2.19, 2.33 and 3.07.
2.19 was the basic kit, included most of the canned cycles
2.33 added parameters, possibly faster rapids, threadmilling, helical moves
3.07 is the DNC version and requires hardware updates.

2.33 has some math problems when running canned cycles in incremental mode.
There are some updates that fix this, not sure if there is an official "package", but the updates use some elements from 2.19 running in the background of version 2.33. Not sure if there is an exact nomenclature for the corrected package, could call it "2.33 Revision A".

DNC was a "very" expensive option back then. Even more so now, considering the advances in memory and file transfer since the 1980s.

Have an 85 FP4NC D4 that had the "intermediate" upper keyboards with updated stickers and 2.33 software including parameters, the 1986 D4 flip head machine had the sticker keyboard and 2.33 software. Both have the DNC markings on the fascia, both needed the "revision" to function correctly in certain canned cycles.

At some point the "smooth molded buttons" upper keyboard became standard, they are a lot nicer to use and wear better over time compared to the original square, (hard corner) buttons with stickers.

Think the only way to definitively know the software version is with the machine powered and depressing the "Info" key in Mode 16. Even then, you kind of have to know what you are looking at.

Couple of notes re D4.
There at least two different Dialog 4 configurations. Not referring here to the software level, but rather the arrangement and number of boards in the operators console.

What i would call first gen dialog 4 controls did not have the NEP 52 or NEP 52A. The K10 jumper has 4 connectors, but one of them was vacant at the position of the NEP 52 (VG8)
Think that slot (VG8) was targeted for additional memory on an additional board..not sure if that ever was made available.
Further i believe that the NPP was full populated with chips.

This version of the Dialog 4 was not capable of doing helical interpolation ()circular move coupled with a depth move.)

The later second gen Dialog 4 installed aa NEP 52 board and changed the NPP to the NPP55 version.Fewer chips as some of the work was provided by the NEP 52 board....

This gave helical interpolation, 3D interpolation and Parameter Programming....and i believe greater memory (not sure on the memory thing)

The inclusion of DNC (drip feed) required the latest software package (3.07) plus a hardware change. The NEP 52 is replaced with the NEP 52A. i believe.

Not all machines with the latest software can run under DNC...gotta have the hardware as well.
Its interesting to note that the factory publication of the "Software Update" from 8-87 touches on "DNC" but does not even mention that you need additional hardware, rather that if you want to use this feature to contact
the factory for assistance.


Cheers Ross

The inclusion of DNC (drip feed) required the latest software package (3.07) plus a hardware change. The NEP 52 is replaced with the NEP 52A. i believe.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure that's universal. My D4 has V 2.19 software, and also has the DNC legend at position 15. It behaves like it's set up for drip feeding when in position 15 but I've never had the software to use it and so I can't verify that it works.

John:
Here is how you can tell...
Go to mode 14.
Key right to highlight the "RS232"
Hit the acknowledge key.
Key down in the "RS232" column to "DNC" it should show "OFF"

Key right and it will change to "ON" if you have what is needed....
Cheers Ross

Ross - It does.

Well this has me pretty confused.....Not sure what this all means.
Looked at the "flip" FP4NC here and it has software package 2.19 just like yours...
And it toggles the DNC feature in mode 14, further if i go to mode 15 i can initiate a call for program, just as it should in DNC.....

Looked at the NEP 52 board from the "Flip" and its different from the NEP 52 on my 3150 FP4NC that actually does and has run under DNC.

The board in the 3150 machine has a sticker on it that says "NEP 52 A" and there are some chips added on little piggy back boards that are different from the plain NRP 52 board....

Wonder what the real story is here....Martin, don't you know someone on the inside at FPS?
Cheers Ross

Think we went through this a few years ago here on the forum and decided that just because you can toggle DNC in mode 14, doesn't mean you can actually DNC without the requisite special software and hardware updates.