FP4NC Axis Overhaul (Large) - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    That looks exactly like my Maho. Gib is on that side.

    Ross,
    when I was fixing my vertical pos. error problem, it ended up being stick slip on the "keepers" (I'd call them clamps) on the back.
    Turcite had swelled up (we think)- so we massaged it alittle.
    Point of all that - I noticed that in the clamps, there are cross drilled holes in the oil galleys, which I was thinking about drilling thru to the outside; installing a good check, and provide a place for some manual enhancement.
    Maybe the deckel is like that, but what do you think? I haven't had time to look for some kind of check (the pump pressure is about 300# - but probably nothing out at the end of the line)

    Great looking shop!
    Sam

    edit: Ross, you just made a good argument for doing things horizontal on these type machines.

  2. #22
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    Sam:
    Manual over ride on the oil might not ber a bad idea. I think you could easily use some "Zerk" fittings and use a pressure oil gun to pump in oil where needed. The zerk is self sealing with a ball check , no additional parts needed. Get the fittings with the tapered threads. (1/4-28 tapered) As to an oil gun McMaster Carr has a nice oil pump gun that works like a grease gun only it is sealed for oil. Bought one for my other machines and it works quite well. Nice idea, just have to be deadly careful not to introduce any dirt (a danger of manual lube points). DD has told me about a repair part avaliable for the lube pump. Stock setup has the pump cycling every 30 minutes or so, but there is a different timer avaliable that shortens the time to 20 minutes...think i will look into that option.
    Cheers Ross

  3. #23
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    Ross,

    Marek just rebuilt Carl's (lathehand's) Cincinatti Mill, and Carl had good things to say about it. He does seem to be fast!

    Maybe the best insurance is a squirt bottle of way lube to use often on those vertical ways. Are there any lubrication passages dedicated to the vertical ways?

    I have a roll of 5/64" turcite at home and thought that was the thin stuff - I had no idea that 1/64" was available and in use. That is good information.

    -Dave

  4. #24
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    I don't have that table anymore. I used it as a boat anchor last time I went out shark fishing.

    Seriously, until I get the machine physically in my garage, and then get it repaired, I don't have to worry about any of this (other than the fact that it may have the same galling, for all I know). Now I'm getting paranoid. Hey, are you watching me? I know someone is? Stop that... You too!

    Dave: If I'm not mistaken, those round circles are part of the lubrication system. I have been wondering about the sides, though. Are there any ports there Ross? I can't see from the photos.

    --Alan

  5. #25
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    I had pretty much decided to do something with the timer. Mine isn't programmable, and the explaination sounds like it's not enough; when you consider it only moves about 2 drops per cycle of the pump.
    Really haven't decided whether I want to add a potential problem to the system, but I was definately going to do it so it could jst be plugged off if I don't like it.
    I read about the guns you bought, I was thinking about some kind of fitting that had a cover to protect the ball check. (like the covered oil cups on old grinders, etc. )
    Main consideration is what will fit.

  6. #26
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    Also it should be noted that Merek was somewhat surprised at how soft the iron was
    is the gib hard? I would think the way would be harder than the gib.
    If one is not harder than the other...that could be your gauling problem.
    Adding the turcite would solve it, I think.
    I'm suprised the scraping went so quickly.

    Thank you for taking the time to post this, and please keep us as up-to-date as you have the time to.

    Sam

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    Sam:
    The Gib is fitted with Turcite so there is no gauling trouble there. The opposite way surface is where the iron of the Vertical slide (knee almost) runs directly on the iron of the coloum. In talking with Merek today he stated that the coloum was deffinately harder than the knee. (judged from the ease of scraping) So it would suggest a different alloy or some type so surface treatment such as flame hardening....I will say that the coloum is deffinately not as hard as the flame hardened bed of my Romi or Colchester.
    Cheers Ross

  8. #28
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    Now Ross, how can you be blaming Vactra if you specificially avoided Vactra, yet you had a problem? Playing Vactra's advocate here, perhaps you might not have had a problem if you used Vactra.

    I find it hard to believe that Vactra would somehow cease to be rated for sliding ways, and would suddenly stop passing all the required standard tests. Do you have some scientific evidence that Vactra was changed for the worse? I do know that such things happen. That's among the things that keep me and my employer in business (failure analysis).

    I saw a listing for a synthetic way oil that allegedly had some kind of moly EP additive, but they didn't list an ISO 220 grade.

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    Rich:
    This subject (Vactra) has been done some in the general forum. The fact is that Mobil in their wisdom removed i believe the tackifiers from vactra about 2 years ago. The reason is somewhat unclear...possibly environmental reasons like the removal of the additives taken out of motor oil and that now make them kill flat tappet cam shafts. Anyhow the printing industry had trouble with the reformulated Vactra to the point that Mobil came out with a new product (Vaculine) that is again foirmulated like the original Vactra...this is not a myth.
    As to my personal expiernce..I was using Kluber (what could possibly be better?) and started having some stiction issues. Not errors from positioning , but a noticable "Clunk" when going to a "-Z" whern the machine had been sitting for a long peroid at the same table height. Tried the Vactra for a time and it was better, but some issues still existed. Went to the Vaculine and that was deffinately better. At this point i think time and cycles have just caught up waith the machine. Thats my story and i'm sticking with it...
    Cheers Ross

  10. #30
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    Ross

    I don't know if I dare ask it, but are you sure the left inside way (when face to the machine) is a real iron to iron friction zone ?

    I seem to remember that there was some kind of clearance between the saddle and the column on my FP3 in this particular area, the saddle "rocking" beeing controlled by the sole right inside way (where the tapered gib is located).

    But I also noticed taht the left inside way shows marks of scrapping on your machine.
    The column ways were also scrapped on mine, except for the left inside way.

  11. #31
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    T:
    Yes i am very sure. Deckel changed the way they located the vertical sliding element (Knee).
    My FP2's locate the "Knee" rock on the inside and outside of the left (operators side) box ways. The adjustment gibb on this setup is on the outside of the way. On My FP3 the "rock" is controlled between the inside faces of the right and left box ways. On this setup the gib is on the operators side (left)inside. The FP4NC and both my FP2NC's are likewise fitted with the adjusting gib on the left inside of the box ways. My NC's are like the FP3 in that the "rock" is controlled by locating the sliding "Knee" between the inside faces on the coloum box ways....
    Cheers Ross

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    The Fun continues:

    Photo is of the lower table support way surface. this surface carries the weight of the table and is the main way for controlling the table rock on teh "Knee" Note teh oil feed checks and lube lines.
    This area is normally covered with a plate . There is also the table limit switch box that is mounted behind the plate that has plungers that stick out to engage on cam ramps that ride on a plate mounted to the bottom of the table.



    Here Merek is giving the table way a "Rough" scrape as a preperation to applying Turcite. The Turcite in this case is .015" thick . It is a tefflon baised material filled with bronze i believe. It is held in place by epoxy.



    Photo of the damage to the lower way support surface. Clearly showing the rough scraping required to assure a good bond.



    Last onme for now, shows the back side of the Knee. The turcite has been applied and the epoxy has set on the vertical slide. It has yet to be scraped. Also seen the face of the Knee slides. These have been rough scraped and these still need final finishing and fitting for alignment.



    Today, we will begin to final fit and check the machine alignments adn with some luck begin to reassemble the machine.
    Cheers Ross

  13. #33
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    Very interesting Ross... Thanks for the great photos.

    Does Marek have any thoughts as to what caused the galling?

  14. #34
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    Thanks for posting the pictures Ross.

    Looks like everything is going well, and amazingly fast.

    Sam
    PS : my maho is as you described for the FP3, but gib is on the other box way, and no turcite on the gib- turcite on the operator side

  15. #35
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    Hello Ross,

    As you and I talked of this up and coming repair I am glad that you found a good scraper. The material that I mentioned to you that us Deckel Service Engineers used was called SKC3 that was Deckel approved and used in the factory. The only thing that I did not like was that it was black in colour and stuck out like a sore thumb. As you and I have talked that I did the exact same repairs to a FP4A and the machine is still in service 11years now and no problems. In fact this customer uses this machine to inspect work coming off of other machines since he has no CMM.

    Ross you are correct with the reformulation
    of Vactra oil. Vaculine is now the prefered oil.

    CAUTION to those of you with adjustable lube pump timers made by Willey Vogel with adjustment knob. If my memory is good the numbers start at 16,32,64,128, 256 and so on,DO NOT MOVE KNOB TO HIGHER NUMBER FOR MORE OIL THIS IS TIME BETWEEN LUBE PULSES. I have had several customer make this adjustment on their own with disaterous results!!!!

    Willey Vogel has a replacement timer that is digital and can be set for any increment of time between pulses. Here is Willey Vogels # 757 380 8585 .

    There is also a company Lube USA that makes lube systems that I have installed central lube systems on FP4m manual machines to take the responsibity away from the operator pulling the handle to lube the machine.

    The flat wide ways of the Z axis should be flame hardened about .020 deep. If you look at the top of the Z ways you should be able to see evidence of the hardening process.

    I recommend to all customers to program extra lube cycles, M7 on a line by itself. This is best done after a tool change since most people lower the Z and move the Y out to make changing the tool easier. Then the lube is distributed over the ways on the way back to the part to be machined. I recommend here again that this be taken away from the responsibility of the operator and be added to your CAD/CAM post for the machine that they automatically add the M7.

    On the Heidenhain Control that I retrofit the lube cycles are a parameter for each axis that is distance dependent. Each axis can be controled individually by what ever distance is put in the parameter. The mess that to much lube on the machine makes is cheap compared to this sort of repair.

    Ross I know this thought has probably crossed your mind but what about having the Y axis scrapped while the machine is down,if your work load allows for it. This way you will have basically a new machine geometrically speaking and be more ready for the Heidenhain Control retrofit.

    Ross if I can be of any help please call.


    regards
    DD

  16. #36
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    Ross,

    interesting pictures, thanks for posting them. Please describe the scraping and fitting process Marek uses for the knee. I ask for two reasons: I've never scraped turcite, and I am curious how many cycles of knee on/knee off it will take, and what tools he uses (are the blades sharpened at the same angle for iron & turcite, etc.)...

    -Dave

  17. #37
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    Dave:
    Will try to keep track of everything although i am not free to just stand and obsurve unfortunately. (work goes on)
    I spoke with Merek yesterday about the Turcite. He told me that he draw scrapes that material. Think he uses the same scraper as he uses for iron. He made his own scrapers...handles are from golf clubs! The ends he fashons from aluminum to have a clamp jaw to hold a carbide blade. I will try to post some pictures.
    He works pretty fast. Does most work using a power scraper and he is pretty good with it. Only does the final finishing work using the hand scrapers.

    He will not be back to my shop until tuesday to finish up the fitting. Think it will go pretty quick. He has already scraped the Turcite to get it flat after glueing to the castings. Merek takes lots of measurments while he is working even doing the rough stuff...keeps the relationships close to origional while he is working. It is nice that a Deckel has lots of good reference surfaces to aide the rough alignments before the final fitting is even begun.

    Good start to the day today! I got my machine upright again. (not level, but standing vertical as it should)
    I don't expect Merek today unless his shipment of parts to repair another job do not arrive.
    Shop and machine are a mess! Blue fingerprints everywhere, iron dust on everything, oil puddles, soaked blocking and machine elements strewn everywhere. Man if you think one of these takes up some room try taking it apart...it got huge immediately!
    Will post more when work continues.
    Cheers Ross

  18. #38
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    As a side note I remember the oil spec for my FP4NC (1985) was Vactra 4 not Vactra 2.

    GM

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    Gary:
    Yep, thats correct. Vactra #4 is an ISO 220 oil. This is used on the CNC nachines. For the Manual machines its Vactra #2 (ISO 68) There are corresponding numbers in the Vaculine product to cover both the Vactra weights but i can't remember what they are at the moment.
    Cheers Ross

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    Sean i would be interested in that information if you can find it.
    I figured if you had the machine that far apart, and there actually is such a provision, that you would have found it already.

    I'll browse through some manuals. I just can't remember which manual...or section...or even machine the blurb was in.

    I'm pretty sure it was an NC manual though.... called something that had been translated from German... "Z axis gravity kompensator" or something... you know how it is.

    Pretty sure I wasn't sniffing any paint at the time, but this may or may not be a hard thing to find.

    Anyway, I'll have a look.

    Sean


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