FP4NC gearbox electronics
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  1. #1
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    Default FP4NC gearbox electronics

    Hello

    I own retrofitted Deckel FP4NC. I bought it several years ago, it was disconnected from the control electronics,and was sitting for several years in my shed. Now I want to make it run again. Everything is pretty clear, except electronic gearbox controller. This FP4NC has electric gearbox controlled by 3 motors.

    There is electronic board that manage gearbox work, it has PIC18F4520 microcontroller, and interface to PC via serial communication and DB9 connector. But except that I know nothing about how it works, there are cutted of wires, and they can be rearranged to cable by colors. But question is how does this work? Can anyone recognize this control board module? I searched internet but found nothing, I hope this is not totally custom design although it is pretty complicated thing to control gearbox motors. Whole electronics use MACH3 software, but I don't know if there is standalone software to control this board and gearbox.

    I lost contact with seller, and can not ask him. Please help...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_20210728_175923.jpg  

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    The board looks to me like a one-of-a-kind custom board, rather than a commercial product. Normally commercial PC boards would have an epoxy mask that covers everything but the solder area of the pads, as well as letters and numbers indicating the parts, polarity, tab or position marks, and so on.

    Some additional evidence would be:

    -- does the board have any date/version/vendor markings on either side? If not, this indicates one-of-a-kind.

    -- are the holes plated through? Or soldered both sides? Soldered both sides rather than plated through indicates a one-of-a-kind custom board.

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    Agree with ballen, that looks like a custom made board. Never seen one that looks like that for Grundig Dialog4.
    The gearbox shifting is fairly complicated, here's a link to a detailed description and relevant information:

    Find FP4NC Transmission Drawings
    FP4NC Horizontal Spindle

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    That is what I was afraid of, full custom made...

    Yes there is no silk screen, and I hoped maybe it was some www project that someone might recognize.

    I read that posts about gearbox before starting thread, and must admin I'm discouraged....
    One thing I can notice, only one speed of spindle motor is connected, if I'm right there are 2 speeds (2 pairs of windings), just one is connected.

    If anybody in the meantime recognize this is some www project, please let me know, I must search further here in the neighbourhood for some people that do retrofitting, probably one of them made this board for gearbox controlling.

    thanks

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    chances are that MACH3 is simply talking to the pic via serial port, when the cnc control wants certain rpm, it sends the command via serial port to pic and waits for the "ready" reply signal from the pic, pic then takes care of the gear shift itself, when gears are in correct positions, it lets MACH3 know that it can switch the spindle motor on

    if you're talking about spindle motor wiring using just a single set of windings, then it might have nothing to do with the custom board, we won't be able to tell based on info you have supplied here, normally, original cnc control will switch the main spindle motor by itself without gearbox board involvement, other than waiting for "ready" signal from it

    in your place I'd wire everything up according to colors and then see what is left unconnected (if anything at all), and have a really close up look at MACH3 config files, especially regarding speed selection, it might give you clues as to how it was set up to work

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    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    chances are that MACH3 is simply talking to the pic via serial port, when the cnc control wants certain rpm, it sends the command via serial port to pic and waits for the "ready" reply signal from the pic, pic then takes care of the gear shift itself, when gears are in correct positions, it lets MACH3 know that it can switch the spindle motor on
    probably you are right, I didn't know that MACH3 has such capabilities, to do some communication via serial port, so I couldn't make that assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post

    if you're talking about spindle motor wiring using just a single set of windings, then it might have nothing to do with the custom board, we won't be able to tell based on info you have supplied here, normally, original cnc control will switch the main spindle motor by itself without gearbox board involvement, other than waiting for "ready" signal from it
    Yes, spindle motor is directly connected to some 1-0 three phase manual switch (also electric brake), and I tried to start it, and works well. And spindle motor is configured in STAR, although there are another 3 wires in spindle motor supply cable, but they are not used... I think it was used (before retrofitting) to switch STAR DELTA topology (correct me if I'm wrong)..

    so it means gearbox does speeds shifting regardless to spindle state (I suppose it should be running)... ANd there is no some dirty algorithm someone mentioned here to synchronise spindle main shaft gears and motor driven shaft gears... I mean to run spindle for a while, then to try to change speed by moving forks in gearbox etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    in your place I'd wire everything up according to colors and then see what is left unconnected (if anything at all), and have a really close up look at MACH3 config files, especially regarding speed selection, it might give you clues as to how it was set up to work
    I have no originally config files, and that gearbox electronic control board has not cut wires connected to gearbox motors (I have to check), seems just to position sensors... must check again for this...

    thanks a lot, you helped me... if you have some more hint please let me know...
    reagards

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    If you are shifting any of the original spindle gears (even if you are not using them all)
    You will need to impart some motion to the motor shaft to allow the gears to mesh .
    All the original gears are straight cut spur gears and will need some help to mesh when the gear is selected....

    In the original setup this is accomplished by releasing the brake and energizing the motor both in short bursts....
    The motor speed is greatly reduced (very low) through dropping resistors to allow the gears to jog and engage...
    Likely one could get a VFD to do the slow motor jog in addition to doing the main spindle speed running....

    The original software jogs the motor in one direction for i believe 3 cycles then reverses the motor jog direction for an additional 3 cycles then a final jog going back in the original direction...
    All the while the control samples the micro switches that indicate the gear selector positions....if the correct switches connect the machine turns on the spindle motor at full power.....Either running in
    Delta or"Y" connection depending on the speed requested....

    If the micro switches fail to connect in the proper sequence by the time the machine has done 9 pulse cycles then the control faults out and generates an E-stop.....

    Should be noted here that the original setup has no shift shaft detents to hold the shafts (3) in any specific engaged position. Shaft position is strictly controlled by the micro switches and cams.
    There is a logic truth table in the factory "Orange Book" for the shifting....

    Also note that there is no 25 RPM range even though its printed on the face panel of the control....Selecting 25 will give 31 RPM actually.
    Original design called for the 25 RPM range, but was dropped due to costs....the panels and rotary switch were ever changed...


    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    If you are shifting any of the original spindle gears (even if you are not using them all)
    You will need to impart some motion to the motor shaft to allow the gears to mesh .
    All the original gears are straight cut spur gears and will need some help to mesh when the gear is selected....
    This is the way how I manually engaged spindle shaft, I rotated it by the hand and sense if gears meshed (in the same time I rotated one of gears motor's rotor by my hand). There must be some local guy who made this electronic to control speed selection, I must find him, but I don't believe that board controls main motor speed in manner you mentioned (very slow speed in 3 cycles and so...). In the meantime I found man has similar machine as mine and similar gearbox control board (at least he says that), will visit him to see how it works with him...

    BTW there is a hydraulic piston near drive belt on the rear machine side, what is this for? It is not connected to hydraulic pump in my case...this piston is similar like tool changer piston on the machine head.

    thanks...

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    There is a tool change hydraulic cylinder for the horizontal spindle. Connection is at the rear of the "Y" slide.
    Has a flex hose connected to a pipe that connects to the cylinder within.....The pipe allows movement of the horizontal quill in or out through the movement of the flex hose.

    The other hydraulic connection at the rear of the "Y" slide is at the oil pump which delivers lube oil to the gears in the "Y" slide..Or if you have a "Flip Head" machine that lube oil is delivered up to the bevel gearing
    that drives the vertical head...Necessary on that machine as the vertical spindle can run up to 6300 rpm .(two speed manual gear selector on the side of the "Y" slide can double the normal output RPM)
    Finally there is a hydraulic output that feeds the tool change cylinder on the vertical head....

    Think later machines (FP4A?) have a variable frequency spindle drive (factory) . That setup has a two speed gearbox (high and low) and there the shifting is via hydraulic cylinder....

    If your machine has something different, likely its part of your retro fit....
    What i have described above is the original factory configuration......
    If yours is different, please post some photos of your setup.
    Cheers Ross

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    I'll make photo of that piston tomorrow

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    Sorry for big delay, here are some photos, piston and gear motors...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_20210804_102215s.jpg   img_20210804_102241.jpg   img_20210804_102249.jpg  

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    Well your machine is unlike any of the FP4NC's i have seen.....
    Can't help with any of the hydraulic components at the rear of your machine....

    Would love to see a photo or two of the entire machine.....I am curious about exactly you have there....
    Not only are there hydraulics that i don't recognize , but your shift motor setup is all different....

    Can you provide a serial number?
    Cheers Ross

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    I'll make photos, any clue where to find serial number? That hydraulic piston was not connected to anything, just open pipe at bottom end...

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    Here are photos, I hope this is serial number on the plate...

    img_20210819_113319.jpg

    img_20210819_113329.jpg

    img_20210819_113510.jpg


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