Does anyone have any experience with the FPS 300 M, which appears to be a currently manufactured replacement for the Deckel FP1. FPS (CNC Frasmaschinen: Deckel FP1, FP2, FP3 ua. & Deckel-Maho Frasmaschine | FPS Werkzeugmaschinen GmbH) is based in germany.
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Fps 300 m
- Thread starter drcoelho
- Start date
- Replies 32
- Views 5,455
AlfaGTA
Diamond
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2002
- Location
- Benicia California USA
Seen them on their web site. Not in person....
Think they are pretty expensive once they get landed here...
Might be more cost effective to buy a rebuilt original from FPS or Singer...
Cheers Ross
Think they are pretty expensive once they get landed here...
Might be more cost effective to buy a rebuilt original from FPS or Singer...
Cheers Ross
Peter from Holland
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2005
- Location
- The Netherlands
And they do not sell to the US directly
Same quality as the old Deckels
I have seen plenty Never used one though Visited the factory even
I sell used Deckels to FPS for their rebuilding branche
They rebuild more as 300 a year and sell about 150 new ones a year
Yes They know what they are doing
Look into Kunzmann perhaps They have a US representative
Peter
Same quality as the old Deckels
I have seen plenty Never used one though Visited the factory even
I sell used Deckels to FPS for their rebuilding branche
They rebuild more as 300 a year and sell about 150 new ones a year
Yes They know what they are doing
Look into Kunzmann perhaps They have a US representative
Peter
Peter from Holland
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2005
- Location
- The Netherlands
Oke They changed their policy then
We talked about it in 2016 I think it was that they had no plans expanding to the US
Are we talking about a European machine 400 volts 50 Hz and under European safetyregulations (CE) or a machine specific for the US market ??
Peter
We talked about it in 2016 I think it was that they had no plans expanding to the US
Are we talking about a European machine 400 volts 50 Hz and under European safetyregulations (CE) or a machine specific for the US market ??
Peter
Peter,
European model, although they expressed willingness to put a transformer on the unit to handle 220V. I might setup my own step-up transformer and just accept the 400V as I'm looking at some other products that will also use 400V. In reading their specs, it looks like 60Hz works out of the box.
Given your familiarity with these products, a couple of questions:
- it looks like the FPS 300 M does not provide an over-arm for long arbor horizontal work, wondering how much of a disadvantage this is, e.g. is it realistic to have a 4" wide cutter without the over-arm? FYI the FPS 500 M does have the over-arm option.
- it looks like the SK 40 tooling is used on this machine and it varies a bit (extra v-notch in collar) from the more common Cat 40 setup. I thought I saw an option for switching out of the SK 40 to the cat 50, is there a hit here in terms of availability of tooling?
European model, although they expressed willingness to put a transformer on the unit to handle 220V. I might setup my own step-up transformer and just accept the 400V as I'm looking at some other products that will also use 400V. In reading their specs, it looks like 60Hz works out of the box.
Given your familiarity with these products, a couple of questions:
- it looks like the FPS 300 M does not provide an over-arm for long arbor horizontal work, wondering how much of a disadvantage this is, e.g. is it realistic to have a 4" wide cutter without the over-arm? FYI the FPS 500 M does have the over-arm option.
- it looks like the SK 40 tooling is used on this machine and it varies a bit (extra v-notch in collar) from the more common Cat 40 setup. I thought I saw an option for switching out of the SK 40 to the cat 50, is there a hit here in terms of availability of tooling?
AlfaGTA
Diamond
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2002
- Location
- Benicia California USA
Lots of modern induction motors work fine on either 50 or 60Hz..
Will make your spindle run a bit faster than the selected speed. For manual applications this should present no issues unless you are calculating your
surface speed to the 4th decimal place...
I have been running an FP4NC since 1993 on 60 Hz with no ill effects save the taps i broke doing power tapping in blind holes before i figures out that my spindle was running faster than i programmed.
Perhaps FPS supplies correcting pulley set to compensate....(Deckel did)
As to not having an overarm ...Funny that is not an option (you need to ask) as the original FP1 was fitted with a removable overarm with outboard bearing for long arbors. Don't see whay
the "300" would not get this feature.
As to running a 4" wide cutter ...Don't think that is going to happen here...unless you are milling Styrofoam. Want to drive a 4" wide plain or stagger tooth on an arbor, and do any real cutting ...you better be looking for a #4 Cincinnati Horizontal or similar...50 taper spindle minimum.
No option on any or the Deckels (or FPS re-pop) fro a 50 spindle taper ...not enough size in any of the structure or spindles to go that route.....Gotta go bigger heavier iron for that...
As to tool holders:
Subject of some discussion here (forum)...
All "40" tapers are essentially the same...CAT, BT, SK....the lot.
The difference lies at the small end of the holder.
The CNC holders (CATand BT) that are intended to be handled in a spindle with tool grippers are shorter because they get the extension of a "pull stud" added to their small end.
The pull stud is machine specific, and threads into the holder.
CAT 40 holders have 5/8-11 internal threads at their small end.
BT 40 holders have metric (M16) threads at the small end.
The SK 40 holder (assume this is DIN 69871) is similar to a CAT40 except that the threads at the small end are M 16 and there is an additional notch in the flange...
There are further complications...Not sure how the FPS machine drives the tool holder...If its conventional having drive tabs bolted to the spindle face, you have to be sure
that the style holder you are using fits those drive tabs....
The CAT 40 holders are asymmetrical...having one cutout on the flange being deeper that the other...Makes the holders directional.
Often the drive tabs can be modified or one removed to allow fitting a specific holder style....
On my CNC Deckels, i settled on the CAT 40 holder system, and that required shortening one of the drive tabs....works fine. Here (US) the CAT40 system seems to be the most prevalent, so lots of
stock in the usual places...keeps the cost competitive.
Looks like the machine can be supplied with either an M16 male thread drawbar (BT or SK)....Or
You can order the older , traditional Deckel style drawbar. This setup has a female socket to accept male threads on the end of the tool holder. (20x2.0 Buttress)
Older system allows use of original; Deckel style direct fitting 40 taper collets original arbors, boring head adapters, etc...A nice feature as they save head room being very short ...If you were upgrading from an existing manual Deckel that was tooled , the original drawbar would be a logical choice..
.
Starting fresh...that 's another matter.
Cheers Ross
On another note....just wondering why FPS continued with the relative low RPM for the 300 (FP1)...Always thought it curious that Deckel gave the smallest machine in their fleet the lowest spindle speed (2000)
And why the heck would FPS carry this forward....Tooling today can benefit from higher speeds....If you work with Aluminum and run smaller tools that 2000 RPM ceiling is just stupid and backward thinking....
Really I just don't understand.......
Will make your spindle run a bit faster than the selected speed. For manual applications this should present no issues unless you are calculating your
surface speed to the 4th decimal place...
I have been running an FP4NC since 1993 on 60 Hz with no ill effects save the taps i broke doing power tapping in blind holes before i figures out that my spindle was running faster than i programmed.
Perhaps FPS supplies correcting pulley set to compensate....(Deckel did)
As to not having an overarm ...Funny that is not an option (you need to ask) as the original FP1 was fitted with a removable overarm with outboard bearing for long arbors. Don't see whay
the "300" would not get this feature.
As to running a 4" wide cutter ...Don't think that is going to happen here...unless you are milling Styrofoam. Want to drive a 4" wide plain or stagger tooth on an arbor, and do any real cutting ...you better be looking for a #4 Cincinnati Horizontal or similar...50 taper spindle minimum.
No option on any or the Deckels (or FPS re-pop) fro a 50 spindle taper ...not enough size in any of the structure or spindles to go that route.....Gotta go bigger heavier iron for that...
As to tool holders:
Subject of some discussion here (forum)...
All "40" tapers are essentially the same...CAT, BT, SK....the lot.
The difference lies at the small end of the holder.
The CNC holders (CATand BT) that are intended to be handled in a spindle with tool grippers are shorter because they get the extension of a "pull stud" added to their small end.
The pull stud is machine specific, and threads into the holder.
CAT 40 holders have 5/8-11 internal threads at their small end.
BT 40 holders have metric (M16) threads at the small end.
The SK 40 holder (assume this is DIN 69871) is similar to a CAT40 except that the threads at the small end are M 16 and there is an additional notch in the flange...
There are further complications...Not sure how the FPS machine drives the tool holder...If its conventional having drive tabs bolted to the spindle face, you have to be sure
that the style holder you are using fits those drive tabs....
The CAT 40 holders are asymmetrical...having one cutout on the flange being deeper that the other...Makes the holders directional.
Often the drive tabs can be modified or one removed to allow fitting a specific holder style....
On my CNC Deckels, i settled on the CAT 40 holder system, and that required shortening one of the drive tabs....works fine. Here (US) the CAT40 system seems to be the most prevalent, so lots of
stock in the usual places...keeps the cost competitive.
Looks like the machine can be supplied with either an M16 male thread drawbar (BT or SK)....Or
You can order the older , traditional Deckel style drawbar. This setup has a female socket to accept male threads on the end of the tool holder. (20x2.0 Buttress)
Older system allows use of original; Deckel style direct fitting 40 taper collets original arbors, boring head adapters, etc...A nice feature as they save head room being very short ...If you were upgrading from an existing manual Deckel that was tooled , the original drawbar would be a logical choice..
.
Starting fresh...that 's another matter.
Cheers Ross
On another note....just wondering why FPS continued with the relative low RPM for the 300 (FP1)...Always thought it curious that Deckel gave the smallest machine in their fleet the lowest spindle speed (2000)
And why the heck would FPS carry this forward....Tooling today can benefit from higher speeds....If you work with Aluminum and run smaller tools that 2000 RPM ceiling is just stupid and backward thinking....
Really I just don't understand.......
Peter from Holland
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2005
- Location
- The Netherlands
Ross did mention it all Thanks
I would like to ad that the tooling would probably be Din 2080 ( direct collets Din 2080 are available as well)
That is standard for the later Deckel machines too and standard for manual milling machines from Europe
About the drive dogs. I never use them and never had a tool slip We discussed this before
I suppose you can use a overarm from a Deckel machine. FPS can supply you one The dove tail will fit as all Deckel accessories like slotting head and such are interchangeable
If the actual height of the support is the same is something you have to ask If it is in the same ballpark it will be easy to adapt
I have never used a arbor support but I am no machinist eighter
Call me if you want
Peter
PS
I looked through their on-line brochure and found this as a option
I would like to ad that the tooling would probably be Din 2080 ( direct collets Din 2080 are available as well)
That is standard for the later Deckel machines too and standard for manual milling machines from Europe
About the drive dogs. I never use them and never had a tool slip We discussed this before
I suppose you can use a overarm from a Deckel machine. FPS can supply you one The dove tail will fit as all Deckel accessories like slotting head and such are interchangeable
If the actual height of the support is the same is something you have to ask If it is in the same ballpark it will be easy to adapt
I have never used a arbor support but I am no machinist eighter
Call me if you want
Peter
PS
I looked through their on-line brochure and found this as a option
- Gegenhalter mit Gegenlager Horizontalfräseinrichtung
So overarm with arborsupport is available
Peter from Holland
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2005
- Location
- The Netherlands
As far as I see it SK40 refers to the cone only
Difference between Din 2080 and Din 69871 is the lenght
Din 2080 SK40
Din 69871 SK40 is this
Both have 16mm ID threading
Difference between Din 2080 and Din 69871 is the lenght
Din 2080 SK40
Din 69871 SK40 is this
Both have 16mm ID threading
AlfaGTA
Diamond
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2002
- Location
- Benicia California USA
OP might want to have a look at the FP1 offered on E-Bay by Milacron...
Looks pretty nice and is well tooled, plus no overseas shipping....
Cheers Ross
Looks pretty nice and is well tooled, plus no overseas shipping....
Cheers Ross
Peter from Holland
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2005
- Location
- The Netherlands
2 Axes powerfeeds only and no rapids
dont think he is looking for that
My 1992 FP1 would be a better option then Oke It has to be shipped (Or he moves over here
)http://veltmanmachines.nl/en/vm/milling-machines/gereedschapsfreesbank-deckel-fp1-2102-aktief/
Peter
$28,000, no accessories, antique DRO, 380 volts, and export crating/shipping/duty ? Contemplating spending that much and he might as well up the game another $10,500 and buy the nicest FP2 on the planet2 Axes powerfeeds only and no rapids
dont think he is looking for that
My 1992 FP1 would be a better option then Oke It has to be shipped (Or he moves over here
http://veltmanmachines.nl/en/vm/milling-machines/gereedschapsfreesbank-deckel-fp1-2102-aktief/
Peter
Deckel FP2 with Universal Table and Positip 6 axis DRO | eBay
Peter from Holland
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2005
- Location
- The Netherlands
Aftermarket DRO with no Aktive function A table that heavy you cannot put a vice on it anymore
1980 Vintage
And no accessories eighter
1980 Vintage
And no accessories eighter
BugRobotics
Stainless
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2015
- Location
- Denver, CO
Hey Peter,
How much (ballpark) to ship one of your lathes to the US?
How much (ballpark) to ship one of your lathes to the US?
LOL..actually the Positip does have "Activ" possiblities (with an optional interface box...which I have, but have never used)...I have yet to get enough inspiration to figure out how to program it, but I met a guy who has done automatic axis shutdown with Positip on the Z axis of a sinker EDM and said it worked great.Aftermarket DRO with no Aktive function A table that heavy you cannot put a vice on it anymore
1980 Vintage
And no accessories eighter
Re the universal table... way heavier duty than that skimpy tilt swivel table on the FP1
At least my FP1 has the proper angular table with it, when one needs rigidity.I appreciate all the suggestions, one of my issues is a VERY limited space, especially head height, just cannot fit an FP2 into my space. FYI, FPS sells a model 500 M which I believe is their match to the FP2..they are also doing CNC machines...all too big for my purposes...
Peter from Holland
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2005
- Location
- The Netherlands
LOL..actually the Positip does have "Activ" possiblities (with an optional interface box...which I have, but have never used)...I have yet to get enough inspiration to figure out how to program it, but I met a guy who has done automatic axis shutdown with Positip on the Z axis of a sinker EDM and said it worked great.
Re the universal table... way heavier duty than that skimpy tilt swivel table on the FP1
Aktive option is not on it yet Like there is no angle table on mine.......... YET and no 2037 table on it .....Yet
Rigidity for what One cannot load a 10kg item on that table any more without exeding max. loadcap.
My machine is a FP1 Smaller footprint That is what the OP is looking for
Peter
The last generation FP2 is 5' 8.8" tall, the last generation FP1 is 5' 5.2" tall. They both "feel" even shorter than that, as about 8" of the height is the plastic cap covering the vertical head drawbar.With head tilted 90 degrees they would both go under a 6 foot opening even on a pallet jack.
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