Get this Deckel FP3A out of my shop!

Ok, here’s the scoop. I’ve got this Deckel FP3A CNC that I’ve had on our shop floor with the intention of getting her up & running with no luck. I’ve always considered ourselves very capable as we’ve brought to life some real oddball equipment but this thing is turning my hair grey.

We’ve spent hours trying to troubleshoot the control but it just won't fire up. We've had no luck and I’m just tired of looking at the machine as its been here for 5-years. I’ve never advertised the machine as we rarely sell machines in non-working condition, but I just don't have the time or energy for this dog anymore. Apparently there are only 2 of these machines ever produced according to the factory, and they told us they might be able to repair the control if we send it to Germany. I just can't justify the costs at this point and just need the space and hopefully to break even. We’ve repaired boards & chips in the control with no avail. So I’m posting this machine here in hopes that someone can bring her to life & give her a new home, who knows.. possibly turn her into a conventional machine? The machine itself is very clean and has the universal tilt rotary, which at this point is probably worth more than the machine. Am I dreaming that I can get back my $6K invested?

Here are the specs & pics
Deckel FP3A CNC Universal Mill

Manufacturer: Deckel
Model: FP3A
S/N: 2206-0952


Specifications:
Vertical Table 12" x 27.5"
Universal Table 28" x 17"
X/Y/Z/ Axes traverse 17.7" / 14.4" / 17.7"
Spindle drive system 2.6 / 4 HP
Spindle Speeds (21 programmable) 31.5- 3150 RPM
Spindle Taper ISO 40
Quill Stroke 3"
Feed rates programmable .08 - 78.74 ipm
Rapid feed rates 157.5
Incremental feed .0004"
Input resolution .0001"




Indepth Description:
Dialogue 2 Control: 3 D Continuous Path Control, Keyboard-Programmable, with Central Display Screen Showing All Positions & Active Machine Condition Data in Program-Controlled as well as in Manual & Setup Modes, with Linear Interpolation, Circular Interpolation, Drilling & Milling Cycles, 4th Axis, Playback Operation, 99 Tool Compensations, Program Store (Approx. 24K), Interface for Cassette Recorder & Terminal for Program Input & Output

I think that would be a tough sale.
The FP3A is not a desirable machine because If I'm not mistaken I think it will only operate one axis at a time, a point to point control, others will chime in with more info I'm sure.
The table does have more value than the machine, If I had to guess it would be in the $2500 to $3000 dollar range because it does not have the scale for the digital readout.
I bought a very nice FP3NC with the table that does have the readout and only paid $4500 for the whole thing to give you a price point.
Kevin.

As I tried to tell you years ago, what you have there, except for the table, is the most worthless Deckel ever made. Even if it ran perfectly it would still be nearly worthless. The reason is, what you have is basically a manual mill but with all the potential electronic troubles of an antique CNC mill. The CNC part will only run one axis at a time (one feed motor, 3 electric clutches...one on each axis) and has to be working properly for the motorized spindle speed gear changes and the hydraulic tool changer to work. So, bottom line is you can't do anything worthwhile CNC on it and as a manual mill, if one 15 cent resistor goes bad somewhere in the maze of boards, the machine becomes a statue.

I know all this because the first two Deckels I ever owned were this exact same model ! (As an aside...seeing as I owned two of them and you have one, and I'm seen as many as three more 1981 FP3A's on eBay since 2000, that kinda puts the "only two made" statement in the toilet ) Now, back then I defended the concept as being at least a bit more capable than a strictly manual Deckel...but that was a dozen years ago. Now, that model is so antique and the regular CNC Deckels with proper Dialog controls sell so low....that any redeeming qualities of the 1981* FP3A have simply evaporated.

Having said all that, unlike me, you were at least lucky enough to get a universal table with yours...that is worth something....the mill in 2000 would be worth something...a few thou maybe. But in 2012 it is worth nothing**. I'm serious...

And FWIW, a retrofit would be out of the question except as some ultra cheapskate home shop guys fantasy (he might start on it but would never complete it)

I paid $500 each for the two below back in 2000 and thought I'd stumbled on the deal of the decade. One of them ran, the other didn't. Never did fix the one that didn't. Found multiple things wrong with the electronics, fixed each issue, and it still wouldn't run. Only CNC machine of my entire career I've not been able to fix !



*I keep mentioning the year as I think they only made these for one year and the next generation of FP3A's were proper CNC machines...quite different from this one. A 1989 FP3A for example is a whole different animal from what you have.

**Well, ok...the handwheels are worth something...the little horizontal quill two spoke lever is worth something, the flourscent light is worth something...but mostly the value is in that table.

============
The below is all completely wrong of course...where do you see seperate axis motors on that machine ? Most likely the control is not even a Dialog but what they called the CNC 2101 straight line control.

Indepth Description:
Dialogue 2 Control: 3 D Continuous Path Control, Keyboard-Programmable, with Central Display Screen Showing All Positions & Active Machine Condition Data in Program-Controlled as well as in Manual & Setup Modes, with Linear Interpolation, Circular Interpolation, Drilling & Milling Cycles, 4th Axis, Playback Operation, 99 Tool Compensations, Program Store (Approx. 24K), Interface for Cassette Recorder & Terminal for Program Input & Output

I'm rather ignorant about Deckels, so the servo setup, digital scales, Dialog whatever control, etc. are all a little foreign to me.

But...Assuming I had a bit of experience with building oddball industrial automation equipment, 2 axis automated precision stages, etc., how far down the rabbit hole do I have to go to retrofit a machine like that? This is from a more hobby perspective, not to create a production machine.

A new control is a given...There are actually some decent open-source PC based solutions if I don't care about moving faster than 150 IPM...And the occasional used Fagor or similar seems to float around occasionally.

I assume servos on all axes? Probably ones that are funky and non-standard...Are the scales some proprietary creation, or do they output a quadrature signal I can play with? The spindle motor is geared? Belt?

I guess I'm wondering how completely funky these machines are. And, if I tear the existing electricals out, treat it like a manual mill, and do a CNC retrofit, am I completely crazy, or just a moderate nut?

DBurnette said:

But...Assuming I had a bit of experience with building oddball industrial automation equipment, 2 axis automated precision stages, etc., how far down the rabbit hole do I have to go to retrofit a machine like that? This is from a more hobby perspective, not to create a production machine.
I guess I'm wondering how completely funky these machines are. And, if I tear the existing electricals out, treat it like a manual mill, and do a CNC retrofit, am I completely crazy, or just a moderate nut?

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Oh Lord...here we go again... yes, you are crazy....but I'll leave others to explain why

I disagree about this being a worthless machine--I'd nominate a KF pantograph (which is a great machine) as more worthless in todays world.
IF in good condition mechanically and electrically, a guy doing repair could make money with an FP3A-- all day, every day, for years to come.

Interesting that this particular machine is for sale now, I know a guy that was dead serious about buying it (in present condition) several years ago when it was listed on the Rohner website, and he could'nt get the time of day from the seller.

Re the value--the machine not being in running condition really hurts the price, the table is definitely a plus and would likely sell for more by itself than the rest of the machine. If you sell the table, the remaining machine would likely sell for less than scrap rate.

Dburnette--if you want the long story, do a search on this forum for "Deckel AND Retrofit".
Short version is that truly functional Deckel control retrofits require technical expertise above and beyond something like a Bridgeport retrofit. Depending on budget and targeted use of the machine, it might likely work out to be more cost effective to retain the existing control and get it working.

If you wish to get the machine running, get in touch with Don Sentner and pay him for advice or a service call--he can get it running.

Let me get this straight, you cant perform an electroectomy on this thing and use it as a manual mill? What the heck were they thinkin when they built this thing. I am glad to have read about this because I saw one of these for sale and was thinking of buying it and using it as a manual mill because it was dead as far as the cnc part goes.

kpotter said:

Let me get this straight, you cant perform an electroectomy on this thing and use it as a manual mill? What the heck were they thinkin when they built this thing.

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Well of course you could but it wouldn't be cost effective and therefore no one actually would. Best to sell the table, sell a few parts from the body and scrap the rest.

Colt45 said:

Re the value--the machine not being in running condition really hurts the price,

Click to expand...

This is one of the rare instances where that doesn't much matter as except for the table it's nearly worthless running or not. Keep in mind I used to own two of these and have bought/sold alot of used Deckel mills in the past 12 years (not to mention Maho, Aciera, Schaublin, etc.) so I know a bit about this.

Yet another one... Deckel FP3A : Fraiseuses

And the second poster states, "You're an optimist (on restoring it - I think)." "It's a rudimentary CNC without the possibility of combined movement for doing contouring and even less for doing 3D." Third poster calls him an optimist as well and says he thinks he has the same model and working on them demands patience and then goes into the electrical complexity. My basic conversational French is rusty, so I'll stop there before I hurt myself. The fellow with the Swiss address here could probably translate it verbatim.

Stupid question, but I don't suppose that universal table would work on a FP2LB with its 45 degree slope?

ChipChaff said:

And the second poster states, "You're an optimist (on restoring it - I think)." "It's a rudimentary CNC without the possibility of combined movement for doing contouring and even less for doing 3D." Third poster calls him an optimist as well and says he thinks he has the same model and working on them demands patience and then goes into the electrical complexity. My basic conversational French is rusty, so I'll stop there before I hurt myself. The fellow with the Swiss address here could probably translate it verbatim.

Stupid question, but I don't suppose that universal table would work on a FP2LB with its 45 degree slope?

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You got me curious so I did a Google Translate on the whole page.... apparently the optimist comment was actually directed at the capacity of his trailer but you got it about right regarding the rudimentary CNC comments. From further reading I can tell that even though his 1981 FP3A is the most pristine one I've ever seen...even that one has something electronic wrong with it such that it won't run !

Re your table question, Deckel made universal tables just for the L/L2 machines but if the mount slots are the same center to center distance as your T slots maybe this one meant for the standard Deckels would work. The standard universal table will tilt 45 degrees forward and 15 degrees back. So you couldn't tilt it forward at all as you'd be maxed out just to get the top level and hard to say at what point the top would run into an obstruction as you tilted back...but might work otherwise. Also, for forward/back tilt you wouldn't be able to make use of the cool dial indicator for returning it back to "zero" since your zero would be actually "45"'

Side to side tilts would seem rather complex to figure out what exactly you'd end up with but then I'm thinking that perhaps the universal table meant for the L machines doesn't tilt sideways anyway.

Milacron said:

Yet another one... Deckel FP3A : Fraiseuses

Click to expand...

Another live prospect. He readily admits "Je ne connais quasiment rien à cette machine et je compte sur vous pour m'éclairer"

or

I know almost nothing to this machine and I am counting on you to enlighten me

TGTool said:

Another live prospect. He readily admits "Je ne connais quasiment rien à cette machine et je compte sur vous pour m'éclairer"
or
I know almost nothing to this machine and I am counting on you to enlighten me

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LOL... yeah, I saw that too. That is Chris's greatest hope on selling it.... someone like DBurnett or kpotter, who doesn't know any better who is in "change it to all manual" or "retrofit it" fantasyland. I think last time we discussed this model, Martin compared it to trying to restore a Yugo...except he admitted that wasn't a great analogy since the Yugo was poor quality and the Deckel at least was good quality. I couldn't think of a good analogy either but thought it similar to restoring an Apple Lisa computer.

Here's some photos of "Heckel" Deckel after I cleaned it up a bit and started using it. Heckel ran fine, but as I said, never could fix it's twin brother Jeckel. With what I have learned about electronics in the dozen years hence, I'll bet I could fix Jeckel now...but it would be pretty much a moot point...in 2012, no one would buy it anyway most likely.

Any change driveparts/spindles of the FP3A are interchangeable with the manual FP3?

Kees said:

Any change driveparts/spindles of the FP3A are interchangeable with the manual FP3?

Click to expand...

Could be, but who on the planet is going to take the time to figure that out ? I guess if anyone knows the answer to that question it would be Franz Singer.

I suspect the vertical head is the same except for the doofus looking hydraulic drawbar assembly, horizontal ram probably the same except it also has a hydraulic drawbar. Probably a fair number of same internal parts individually but hard to say what exactly.

For my broken fp3....
Altought often stated a FP3A is worthless, so far I've not been able to find one at the right price.

Kees said:

Altought often stated a FP3A is worthless, so far I've not been able to find one at the right price.

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I guess the problem is it's only often stated to be worthless by me. Apparently there are those in Europe that think it has value for some reason.

There was a PM member in South Africa who posted here once who had the same machine and faced the same heartbreaking dilemma, where the machine appeared very nice but it didn't run and you are faced with the "solution" of either converting it to all manual use or retrofitting a CNC control somehow...but neither of which is even remotely justifiable on that particular setup. So, they sit there as monuments, since they seem too pretty to scrap, and "parting out" is an iffy proposition since you don't know for absolute sure that the parts you end up with will fit an Active FP3 or not....and they are of no value to anyone except a last generation FP3 (FP3NC's had a different vertical head, etc)

If you are retired and have nothing better to do, I think converting one to all manual use would be the better route to take, but it would be quite an undertaking to do so properly.

I had tried to help service guy who works for Fritz Rohner to get machine running.

But with out being there at the machine proved futile.

The control is either 2101 or 2102 straight line control one axis at a time

Problem is most of the control is on one circuit board and is difficult to repair, But I have repaired 3-4 of these controls.

I did know where there was a spare control at one time but I have no idea if the guy who had still has it,could call I suppose.

I have customer who uses 2 of these daily. He had thought about buying this one to get running or for spares. But a FP4NC came available just down the street from him from one of my other customers so he purchased the FP4NC instead of this machine. So now his plan is to keep both fp3a and when one starts having problems he has the other for spares.

Machine has lots of spares parts if you need them, scales or for scale reader heads worth easy 2K

You could put Heidenhain 124 controller on the machine and keep it running.

ON EDIT: If you had the idea to run any CNC Deckel as a manual machine you would have to looosen up gibb adjustments,so you could

turn the handwheels easier which decrease accuracies. OH AND YOU NEED ARMS LIKE POPEYE! HAHA

Regards DD