Hermle Universal index table
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  1. #1
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    Default Hermle Universal index table

    I recently acquired a very nice Hermle UWF801 with the uber cool indexing table so I thought Iíd post some pics of the table. Hermle machines are rather scarce over here and this table has some unique features as well as being the same mounting bolt spacing as manual Deckels.
    This way if another turns up on Ebay or something one of the Deckel owners may take a closer look at it.



    Iím not going to get into a discussion of Deckel vs Hermle or whatever. I just want to try to show the quality of a make thatís very obscure in North America.

    One of the nicest features is that the table is removable with a 40 taper socket underneath.
    The drawbar is M16 so it of course only works with #40 DIN 2080 tooling. Iím guessing thatís the only #40 taper with the extended bit thatís threaded M16, please correct me if Iím wrong. BT40 wonít reach the drawbar.

    The drawbar is actuated through a bevel gear setup and a hex attachment on the front of the table. The manual makes reference to the M20x2 Deckel thread so I guess that was an option, I canít find any more info to that end.




    My machine also came with the original support that bolts to the table allowing a center to support long work pieces.



    The table top comes off by removing the center two bolts and removing the four nuts that are on the circular clamps to clamp the rotation. Thereís a thumb screw for light duty clamping of the rotation.
    Another neat tidbit is the eccentric bolt that clamps the slotted part of the table to the drive bar on the table spindle. Even came with a special torque wrench for putting the correct amount of pressure on the drive bar. In the next pic you can see the eccentric towards the top right of the mounting recess.



    Another nice feature is the very substantial index pin that engages onto a gear for direct indexing of the table. 48 positions or every 7.5 degrees.
    The worm engages by the usual eccentric mount for rotary milling or indexing.
    The direct index pin utilizes a gear with v shaped teeth, separate from the worm gear.




    Index plates are also another example of the level of quality, the index pin is tapered as is the holes in the index plates for precise engagement.

    It also has the indicators for tram which seem to be very accurate or repeatable from the tests Iíve done so far.

    When I get things cleaned up better Iíll take some pix of the machine itself, the range of #40 tooling it can use is worth a separate thread.
    Iíll also be selling my FP2, Iíll post that soon.

    Chris

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    that looks like an awfully nice set-up.

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    Always thought Hermle was a great machine that was well below the radar.
    Looked at buying a new one maybe 15 years or more back...before i landed my FP4NC.

    Table looks very nice with some excellent fearures. Love the 40 taper setup and the tailstock setup....
    Anxious to see the entire machine. Curious if this machine was from a company that had a Euro parent company and that is why it is here, or?

    Looks like you scored a pretty complete kit...good as i rarely ever see any Hermle machines or accessories offered for sale.

    Cheers Ross

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    Chris, thanks for posting. As I acquired the table that Don was selling I have particular interest in this. I have been meaning to post pictures of my table set up on my FP2 but have not had much (if any) shop time of late.

    Curious as how to remove the t slot top to access the 40ISO taper holder. I removed the bolts and tried lifting but nothing wanted to budge. Rather the potentially wreck something I left it for another day. Any insight you have would be great.

    Thanks

    John

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    Chris,

    Your complete post had not loaded by the time I replied. Too quick on the trigger. Now seeing your table removed I can see there is nothing else holding it. Looks like I just need to use a little more oompf!.

    Thanks

    John

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    John,

    There are two T-slot clamps that clamp the table down to prevent movement, if you look at the base with the table off, there are two holes on each side of the table about 2.5" apart.

    The nuts for those clamps need to be removed for the table to lift off.
    In the fifth pic down you can see the t-slot track.

    When I get around to scanning the manual I'll send you a copy.

    Chris

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    Chris, thanks in advance on the scanned manual, that would be great.

    I did take the camping nuts off but table did not budge. Was a little worried about doing damage and as I don't have an ISO 40 collet holder I put on the back burner. Now seeing your pictures I can see what I need to do. May try some sort of jacking screw in the gap where the table clamp t nuts are. I think the t slot table has been married to base unit for awhile and two are not quite ready to be separated.

    Thanks again for the detailed photos in your original post.

    JP

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    Dear Chris, Dear John,

    I just received one of these tables, for use on a Deckel FP2. The instructions above, for removing the table top, read as follows:


    "The table top comes off by removing the center two bolts and removing the four nuts that are on the circular clamps to clamp the rotation. Thereís a thumb screw for light duty clamping of the rotation. Another neat tidbit is the eccentric bolt that clamps the slotted part of the table to the drive bar on the table spindle. Even came with a special torque wrench for putting the correct amount of pressure on the drive bar. In the next pic you can see the eccentric towards the top right of the mounting recess."

    Unfortunately the pictures are no longer included in the thread, and my table is missing the "special torque wrench". Could one of you measure that torque, so I can rig one up for myself? Also, when I want to remove the table top, should the eccentric be turned clockwise or counterclockwise?

    Cheers, Bruce

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    Hey Bruce

    Don't you think it's about time to show us your find ?
    I can't wait to see that gem on the FP2 !
    It may wake up Chris and John...

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    Hi Tien,

    Quote Originally Posted by TNB View Post
    Don't you think it's about time to show us your find ? I can't wait to see that gem on the FP2 !
    Here it is, not pristine, but everything seems to work. Only damage are the apprentice marks on the table, and the markings/division strip for the left/right angle scale is damaged -- you can see it dangling down below -- I intend to make a new one from 12 x 0.8mm stainless steel strip.



    As hoped, the mounting flange plate fits perfectly. Slots on the oval table are 12mm/45mm, just as on the FP2 itself.



    The three crank controls are all hex, 17mm across the flats, which exactly matches my Hilma hydraulic vise. So I already have suitable crank handles, which is nice.

    The control on the right is left/right tilt, the control on the front right is vertical axis rotary table, the control on the front left is tilt fore/aft, the control on the top center is 48 position/7.5 degree indexing of the rotary table, the control on the bottom center is the drawbar for the built in SK40 taper at the center.



    The oval table clears the bellows, and should also just clear the armoured bellows.



    There are mounts for two dial indicators, to tram the left/right and fore/aft tilt, but I have not yet installed and tried these.

    I intend to use the table for a while, check out all of the functions, and when I am satisfied that all is OK or have identified any problems, I'll tear it down, fix anything that's wrong, paint it to match the rest of the mill, and put it back together.

    I am hoping that one of the other owners can tell me what the correct torque is for the eccentric clamp, and what direction it should be turned to remove the table.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 01-30-2021 at 11:57 PM.

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    Looks good to me !

    And the table doesn't seem to overhang as much as the 2038 would have.

    The top plate looks really massive ! Is it ribbed underneath, or plain solid ?
    You might consider having Uncle Franz give it a ride on his planer to get rid of the apprentice marks and give it the appropriate Deckel stripes pattern !

    Great buy ! Now I'm jealous !

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    Hi Tien,

    Quote Originally Posted by TNB View Post
    Looks good to me! And the table doesn't seem to overhang as much as the 2038 would have.
    Yes, in several respects I think this is a better match to the machine than a Deckel 2038 would have been. The spacing of the Hermle adaptor plate and the table slots, the size of the table top, and the offset between the rotary table axis and the flange are a better match to the Deckel FP2 than the 2038 would have been. Of course this is exactly what you were saying all along, which is why I did not immediately dismiss this table when I was told about it.

    The top plate looks really massive ! Is it ribbed underneath, or plain solid ?
    You might consider having Uncle Franz give it a ride on his planer to get rid of the apprentice marks and give it the appropriate Deckel stripes pattern !
    The top plate is ribbed, but quite thick. I would just take it off and send it to Franz, BUT remember that the bottom of the table table top, where it mates to the rotary mechanism, has to be very parallel to the top. Right now, a dial indicator shows < 5 microns of height variation when I rotate the top through a full rotation. It would be very easy to screw that up. So I need to know if Franz can do that, or if he would need the entire table in order to just plane the top. But yes, in the long term I might well do that.

    Great buy ! Now I'm jealous !
    Well, let's see if I find anything else wrong, and how it really works in practice. I might start to dislike the weight and it's effects, though so far it seems OK, but I don't have a vise on it yet.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    John provided these three photos, and said it was OK to post them. It explains better than anything how this works. Note that his table has the round top not the oval top, but the clamping mechanism is the same.

    Here is the bottom view of the table top. The slit piece is pinned in place, and two SHCS comes through it. The eccentric closes the slit.



    Here is the top view. You can see the counterbored holes for the two SHCS, the two pins, and the inner hex of the eccentric clamp.



    Last but not least, here's the part which the table top attaches to. The eccentric clamp and slit ring locate the table top on the SK40 cone.



    I think there is some feature which allows the top to only clamp onto the SK40 cone in one orientation not two.

    John wrote, "I have used 10 Nm as my preferred torque but I don’t think it matters that much. I just picked a number to be consistent."

    Cheers, Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 01-31-2021 at 11:38 PM.

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    Brief update:

    I was not looking forward to making a replacement for the damaged scale strip, visible in the first photo of post #10. The original is nickel-plated spring steel, engraved with 90 marks spaced 3.571 mm apart, with mounting holes at weird offsets, etc. So I sent Hermle an email, asking if they had a replacement part available for this fifty-year old table, feeling quite certain that the answer would be "no".

    This morning I found the following reply in my inbox. Translating from the German, it reads, "We still have the scale in stock. The original half-round rivets 1.7 x 5mm are unfortunately no longer available. We're sending you a scale and some half-round notched rivets 1.6 x 5 free of charge as a goodwill gesture, and hope that it works out. Have fun with the table!"

    I'm seriously reconsidering my commitment to Deckel .

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    Now you've got me wondering if I should take the chance to shoot them a mail saying that I have the scale strip and I'm looking for the table that goes with it...

    Ahem !



    ps : for some reason, I can't see no pictures on that thread.

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    This arrived in the mail earlier this week...



    and I just put it on:



    Here's something weird: the bottom rivet hole was missing. At first I thought that there must be a broken off rivet jammed inside. But after inspection with light and magnifying glass, the conclusion was, the factory forgot to make that hole. So I drilled the missing hole and put in the fourth rivet.

    I have also tested the tramming with a dial indicator, it works well to record the zero tram point. And there is enough space for a standard (= inexpensive) 57mm diameter dial indicator.


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    Would have guess that you held off of fitting the new scale till after the table was re-painted.....
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Would have guess that you held off of fitting the new scale till after the table was re-painted.....
    I'm going to follow the same advice that I give others. I am going to use the table for a while before I tear it down for cleaning/repair/paint. When that time comes I'll probably pull the rivets, I've got a bag full of them.
    Last edited by ballen; 02-06-2021 at 01:59 AM.

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    I've taken off the top to investigate the SK40 taper inside. Surprisingly none of the bearing surfaces are scraped, in fact I'm not even sure if they are ground or just flycut. But the table does run very true.



    The taper ID is in good shape apart from a couple of corroded spots, which I've rubbed clean with a wooden dowel and some oil. According to the manual, this was available with either an M16 or an S20x2 thread. What's now inside there is an outside thread, but it's larger than M16. Perhaps it's some custom threaded adaptor stuck into an S20x2 inside thread. Anyway, I've got to figure out how to remove it so I can investigate.

    I wrote to Hermle to ask if the S20x2 drawbar was still available. They responded the same day with a formal quote, 42 Euros plus VAT -- I'd still have change left over from a 50 Euro note. I like this company!

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris999 View Post
    One of the nicest features is that the table is removable with a 40 taper socket underneath. The drawbar is M16 so it of course only works with #40 DIN 2080 tooling. The drawbar is actuated through a bevel gear setup and a hex attachment on the front of the table. The manual makes reference to the S20x2 Deckel thread so I guess that was an option, I can’t find any more info to that end.
    It's almost ten years after this post, but I thought that I would put the info here for anyone who needs it in the future. The drawbars are still available from Hermle at reasonable cost. The S20x2 drawbar for Deckel tooling is part number 103.16.84.03, and the M16 drawbar for DIN2080 tooling is Hermle part number 103.16.82.04.
    Last edited by ballen; 02-14-2021 at 06:48 PM.


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