Hilma clone identifaction?

Is anyone here able to identify this vise? The plate is very worn. I have asked the seller for more info and pictures straight on, I can perhaps tweak it in photoshop then and get some info on it. I am interested in this vice but I was told by Bruce that some of these clones I might not be able to get replacement parts for so if they leak and I cannot get new parts, it's just scrap.

Can't help with the identification....but would ask especially since you have indicated that you are on a tight budget, ask why go for a hydraulic clamp vise?

Perhaps this is a "Euro" thing.
Been in this business a long time and although i do own a hydraulic vise (needs rebuilding, and have never bothered) really don't see the advantage to the hydraulic clamp setup.
In fact for my dollar the Kurt angle lock vise setup i think is superior in having the force applied as a vector when closing the jaws on the work that forces the movable jaw down against the vise body as well as against the work.....giving less tilt to the sliding jaw....


Seen lots of shops running thousands of parts here in the states, and don't think i have ever seen anyone running a hydraulic vise......Lots of variants on the mechanical screw designs....Kurt, Orange, Chick ect.....

Never felt like i couldn't get the work tight enough using a simple screw closing vise...In fact just the opposite..often feel like i need to back down the clamping force to avoid tweaking the work, especially on
thin plate stock.

Personally if looking to max my benefit per cost, i would rather have a good mechanical screw vise over an average to poor (as above) hydraulic...Further, i would look to getting one that had square sides,
the types that allow clamping on their sides (NC ?) which further expands their versatility and usefulness.
Cheers Ross

I'm actually open to anything really, thrawling through the for sale ads and I found this for what I think is a good price at 90 euros. It being hydraulic is actually accidental but to me a not unwelcome aspect.

I've also looked at new ones like Zentra, I am not sure if they are chinese or east european made, I've heard both claims:
Machine vice, Type MSK 125 D-ZE-MSK125D

It does not have square sides either though...

If I may, have a look here Machine Vices - Arc Euro Trade .

I've bought from them a couple of times and I know that even serious people buy (selected items of course) from them.

They have square-sided vices at crazy prices and, from what I've read, they are at least ok. They also sell those precision 'screwless' vices Precision Tool Vices Type 2 - Arc Euro Trade . I bought one from them for my previous machine and really regret giving it along with the machine, really precise. Also, not so small as one might think initially. (still no square sides of course...)

BR,
Thanos

Ah those look like the kind of "toolmakers vise" that I see Stefan G use in his videos. I've wondered about those and if they would be suitable for the deckel.

I know he does a lot of small precision work so I figured maybe that's more suitable to his purposes, but that there is a 120mm vise so no miniature vise that.

EDIT: The 120mm version has slots for clamping to the side, so it has got to be square and precision ground on the sides too.

Yes Stefan uses a vise like this, I actually think it's exactly this type, bought from ARC.

Many people might disagree on the suitability but I have done some really heavy milling on the 70 mm version I had. It's so precise that I guess will clamp hard enough, probably harder than a conventional but worn vise (can't compare to a proper vise in perfect state in terms of clamping of course, but I don't think there will be issues for 'reasonable' use).

Regarding resting it to it's side, I am sure it can be done, done all the time in grinders (that's why the moving jaw it a wee bit thinner than the fixed one to avoid rubbing it on the mag chuck). But I think the slots are for 'conventional' mounting, flat on the table.

BR,
Thanos

Vertex make a screw type vice with the same pin in hole range setting used on hydraulic vices. I bought two like this



around 20 years ago and have found them quite satisfactory for general use. OK its no Kurt but the ability to hold larger than usual parts, maximum opening is 7", is a god send and well worth the extra care needed to seat things properly at the widest setting. Frankly I'm unconvinced by the whole angle-lock pull down thing. The vice needs to be very well made for that to work as advertised. If its that well made would probably be just fine without complication. When you see cheap and "a bit of fettling by the user will make it work better" comments I think honest supplier but life is too short! Chick have the only pull down system I really believe.

About £250. Rotagrip - 05) Vertex 110 x 180mm Wide Opening Swivel Base Machine Vice

Clive

250 in pounds is a lot for a chinese vise IMO. Not likely to get that with the conversion rate and shipping on top.

Now here is a vise I found in sweden, 125mm, probably chinese too. But can be used on it's side, 150 euros + shipping.



Part of me though wants something older that fits stylistically with the Deckel and which isn't china made. Hoping to hear some more info from the seller of that first vise.

my 2 cents: only yesterday had I a part lifting when tightening in my old and worn Hilma on the FP2. I would have loved to have had that small screwless and be sure that the vise is not the issue. Sometimes you just want something done and not another project....

I've been researching and I got another good personal review of the same arc euro precision vice, the 90 mm version this time. It is one of the more attractive options but there is a lot of information to sift through, never really considered the ins and outs of vises before...

DennisCA said:

250 in pounds is a lot for a chinese vise IMO.

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True thats not bargain bin cheap. But Vertex are out of Taiwan, not mainland China, and are basically second tier industrial equipment suppliers. Workmanlike products of honest performance but significantly less costly than the upper brand name suppliers. Probably safer than trolling around the economy end of the market where quality can be all over the shop. I've seen both "amazingly good" and "how can they dare sell that rubbish" looks the same, priced the same, next door to each other. Really its down to trusting your supplier. Ketan at Arc has a justifiably good reputation for value for money products of respectable performance. Some other suppliers aren't as careful. But there are limits as to what you can get for your money so you have to be realistic. Packing, shipping, stocking and selling costs will be similar for both low and higher end vices of comparable size. So the lower the price tag the less of your money goes into the vice itself.

Personally I'm happy to spend more to avoid faffing with vices. Sometimes it's hard enough to keep the job in place without fighting the vice too.

My Vertex is actually basically the same as their hydraulic one, just half the price due to being a simple screw rather than hydraulic drive. One on E-Bay right now for £140 actually. Lord knows what shipping would be.

Any hydraulic vice will be of at least decent quality, no point in putting expensive hydraulics on a crappy vice. I'd be quite happy to rework one in basically good order with broken, unfixable, hydraulics to take a screw expecting to get a decent vice at the end. If the hydraulics are down odds are its fairly simple seal, O ring or similar. Hard bit is going to be figuring out how it all comes apart.

Clive

Clive603 said:

Frankly I'm unconvinced by the whole angle-lock pull down thing.
Clive

Click to expand...

Have seen the evidence in actual use of the Kurt pull down action....Apply a coat of light oil to the top slide face of a good Kurt "Angle Lock" and close the jaws on a part....
Apply clamping force to the handle and you will see the oil squeeze out from under the moving jaw.....
Cam action can be adjusted to actually hold the jaw tightly to the vise body if desired and the adjustment can be done from the rear of the moving jaw....With the part clamped if needed.

In the US more Kurt vises doing daily work than any other brand i believe.....In use by shops that depend on accurate reliable work holding.
Cheers Ross

AlfaGTA said:

Can't help with the identification....but would ask especially since you have indicated that you are on a tight budget, ask why go for a hydraulic clamp vise?

Perhaps this is a "Euro" thing.
Been in this business a long time and although i do own a hydraulic vise (needs rebuilding, and have never bothered) really don't see the advantage to the hydraulic clamp setup.
In fact for my dollar the Kurt angle lock vise setup i think is superior in having the force applied as a vector when closing the jaws on the work that forces the movable jaw down against the vise body as well as against the work.....giving less tilt to the sliding jaw....


Seen lots of shops running thousands of parts here in the states, and don't think i have ever seen anyone running a hydraulic vise......Lots of variants on the mechanical screw designs....Kurt, Orange, Chick ect.....

Never felt like i couldn't get the work tight enough using a simple screw closing vise...In fact just the opposite..often feel like i need to back down the clamping force to avoid tweaking the work, especially on
thin plate stock.

Personally if looking to max my benefit per cost, i would rather have a good mechanical screw vise over an average to poor (as above) hydraulic...Further, i would look to getting one that had square sides,
the types that allow clamping on their sides (NC ?) which further expands their versatility and usefulness.
Cheers Ross

Click to expand...

^^^^^ What he said. I've had and used Hilma vises, sold both of them. Still have an 8" wide model that I've never used just in case, and hope I never need to move it, must be 300 lbs with the swivel base,. The hilma type will lift the jaw when clamped on a part that only engages the top of the jaws, and I've not yet needed more clamping than a 6" or 8" Kurt will produce, more often need to reduce the force by using a torque wrench. I've recently taken to using Chick 6" double station vises converted to single station operation to hold the wider parts that we used to put in 8" Kurts because the aluminum vise bodys are so much nicer to deal with and easier to disassemble and clean.

ll

Why not look for a swiss Fribosa or its german counterpart from EHS or Spreitzer (I think Röhm makes the same vice as well) ?



All those are made in Europe and they have the same "anglock" feature as Kurt vices, and are ground on their sides. Very accurate. See page 10 of this Spreitzer brochure.

They are my vices of choice as long as the work to be done doesn't require brute power and cherry on the cake, it is not rare when they can be had cheap on german eBay....

The only downside I can think about on the ones I have, is the lack of provision to change jaws. But that's nothing some EDM couldn't care of.

I'm 99% certain I will go with the precision vice from ArcEuroTrade but I won't order a vice just now, have other expenses and I gotta spread them out. But I will keep an eye out for these vices too, if I can find them cheaply that might be worth a shot.

I saw some videos and Stefan G. got his vices straight from the ArcEuroTrade and he's very happy with these vices and talked about them in a video, said he prefers them over Hilma etc. I give a guy like Stefan a lot of weight when it comes to opinions. One thing I am unsure of is if I should go with a 90mm or 120mm version, the 90mm vice has a 120mm capacity and the 120mm one has a 150mm capacity.

Also vice/vise. It's a bit infuriating that english couldn't settle on one word right. Maybe they should all use the finnish word instead, koneruuvipuristin. That'd be something to hear!

DennisCA said:

I'm 99% certain I will go with the precision vice from ArcEuroTrade

Click to expand...

Still, let me point out that the vise I mentionned would give you the benefit of a full range opération without fussing around with the screw anchor, and a much beefier screw to begin with.
So really worth considering imho.

Plus when I mean cheap, I really do mean it : EHS maschinenschraubstock

TNB said:

Still, let me point out that the vise I mentionned would give you the benefit of a full range opération without fussing around with the screw anchor, and a much beefier screw to begin with.
So really worth considering imho.

Plus when I mean cheap, I really do mean it : EHS maschinenschraubstock

Click to expand...

thanks for that TNB, I would also like a nice vise that won't cost much, that's a great recommendation.