What's new
What's new

Is this a Hilma Hydraulic Vise from the 1960's ?

ballen

Diamond
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Location
Garbsen, Germany
Dear Deckel fans,

Yesterday a friend came by to see my 1965 FP2; he has an even older FP1 in his basement and was curious to see what I have been working on in my spare time.

At some point, he asked if I had gotten a milling vise. I said yes, but it was mechanical and I wanted to get a hydraulic vise. But the truth is that when I got everything home, the vise went into a dark corner on the floor of the workshop and has been sitting there since, covered with grime. Anyway, he had a look at it and said, "No this IS a hydraulic vise, I think it's a Röhm, I used to use one just like it".

So we pulled it out and cleaned it up a bit. Indeed it is hydraulic, we put more fluid into it, pushed the piston out with compressed air, shook out the bubbles and air, put in more fluid, and (to my suprise!) it worked well! Here it is:

IMG_2236.jpg

I think it might be the same as the one in the first picture in this post which I think is also the one in the front in this picture. Both of these are posts from Milacron.

It also looks exactly like the vise in these photos from a 1960s Deckel brochure, posted by TNB.

There was one bit of adjustment that we were not able to get working, and I wanted to ask the group about it. At the end of the "screw" you can see the three red rings; these disappear when the pneumatics get pressurized:

IMG_2237.jpg

At the end of this shaft is a knurled knob with can be turned back and forth. This switches the action from hydraulic (when it is "pushed in") to mechanical (when it is "pulled out"). The plunger controls a transverse locking pin, which locks the central shaft to the screw.

IMG_2238.jpg

In my case, this knurled knob assembly can't be completely screwed in place, there is a central "pushrod" inside the shaft which won't go farther in.

If you look inside the shaft at this pushrod, there is a slotted adjusting nut (which I have not yet made a suitable tool to adjust, since the shaft projects from it; I need to grind a notch in the middle of a broad screwdriver.). It's sort of visible in this not-very-good photo (you can see the notch at the top of the inner nut).

IMG_2240.jpg

Since the vise seems to be in pretty good condition, I am guessing that this simply needs to be properly adjusted. Could someone tell me how this adjustment should be set? Is there anything else I need to be aware of with the vise? I have read that spare parts (presumably the piston seals) might still be available. Is there a reasonable parts source in Europe? Can someone identify the model of the vise? Is there an instruction manual or parts list or exploded diagram available? The vise has no identifying marks, other than the numbers "103" and "6203" stamped onto the back of the rails. I suspect it has the same vintage as the mill (1965).

Cheers,
Bruce
 
I have a hilma that is a bit newer. The screw does look hilma as well as the stationary jaw. They do work well but keeping the hydraulics working can be a chore at least on mine and hilma s are known for bad seals.Have not rebuilt mine yet, just keep adding oil, so if you find a source let me know. Actually there are some older posts about it and I do recall actually tracking down seals just didn't buy them for what ever reason.Don't remember now , too many other things going on.
 
Dear HM,

Thanks for the response.


Yes, the 125 mm (5 inch) wide DAPRA HydraVise looks similar, although not identical. Does it have identical (swappable parts) hydraulics as my vise?

I looked through the DAPRA side but couldn't find any technical literature or spare parts info on-line. So I've written to ask them about an owners and/or service manual, and spare parts.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
Dear Yzfr1pwr,

I do recall actually tracking down seals just didn't buy them for what ever reason.

Thanks for the note. If I can figure out where to get seals or other info, I'll post it here. If you can remember your source, please do the same!

[EDIT] Hilma Römheld GmbH in Germany can supply some spare parts for vises of this type starting in model year 1968.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
Last edited:
Here is the reply from Hilma Römheld GmbH in Germany:

"für diesen Schraubstock, bzw. Baujahr 1965, können wie keine Ersatzteile mehr liefern."

(For this vise, in light of the construction year, we can't supply any spare parts.)

Some further correspondence indicated that they have parts starting from 1968 models and onwards.
 
Last edited:
This afternoon I visited Franz Singer Werkzeugmaschinen GmbH in Geretsried, near Munich. When I showed Herr Singer a photo of my vise, he walked over to a cabinet, pulled out a drawer, and took out two new seals (one large, one small) for the pistons, which I then purchased. So if you need these seals, please send Singer Werkzeugmaschinen a photo of your vise, and ask for a quote!
 
Today I decided to take a break from working on the FP2, to finish fixing this hydraulic vise. Here are the relevant parts:

IMG_2298.jpg

I needed to make a tool to turn the threaded insert which is the second item from the left in the photo above. I made this from a short piece of 12mm steel rod, bored to 7.15 mm internally. I then machined the end to leave a pair of 2mm wide stubs. You can see from this setup (a milling attachment for my lathe) why I really want a milling machine in my workshop!

IMG_2299.jpg

Here is the finished tool, along with the spare hydraulic seals, which I don't need for the moment, because the hydraulic system is not leaking.

IMG_2303.jpg

IMG_2304.jpg

After spending a while playing around with assembling and disassembling the mechanics, I finally figured out what was wrong. The problem was with mounting of the transverse pin, show just above the smaller shaft in the first photo. That pin had been assembled with the tapered side sticking out of the hole marked with the purple line on the masking tape. It needed to be sticking out from the other side of the hole, 180 degrees around the shaft.

Now everything works as it should:

HYDRAULIC OPERATION
If the bayonet plunger is disengaged (pulled out), then one can rotate the inner shaft clockwise, and after the torque reaches a reasonable level, the taper pin is forced into the small shaft, and the smaller shaft screws into (rotates CW with respect to) the larger shaft. When the inner shaft is rotated counterclockwise, it unscrews from the outer shaft until the taper pin drops into an internal slot in the ID of the larger shaft. At that point, the smaller shaft locks to the larger shaft, so that the larger shaft must also rotate counterclockwise.

MECHANICAL (NON-HYDRAULIC OPERATION)
To enable this mode of operation, one needs to rotate the inner shaft CCW until it locks to the larger shaft as described above. Now one can engage (push in) the bayonet plunger. This locks the taper pin in place in the internal slot described above. CW rotation of the inner shaft will NOT retract the taper pin as described above, so that the inner and outer shafts rotate together. This effectively "disables" the hydraulic function and makes the system function like a traditional mechanical vise. According to the manual this is primarily to get the vise tight enough that the material being clamped is compressed enough so that one can then shift to the hydraulic action. (For example if you are clamping a stack of sheet metal pieces.)

I'm excited that this doorstop/anchor has turned out to be a decent hydraulic vise. I've cleaned it up some more, and underneath all the grime it's a decent tool.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
Hi!

I remembered reading this thread and now I have a vise that looks remarkably the same from the inside! Just found a vise at a market in a nearby industrial town. When I bought it I didn't know if it was hydraulic or not but the price was very good so i bought it anyway. I suspected it was hydraulic, judging by the size and the looks. 150 mm jaw width, 300 mm opening, max 44 Kn clamping force. Looks like a Takeda TK-150 HVS from every detail.

IMAG3944.jpg


Luckily hardly any damage from drilling/milling and the slideways are like new.


First the hydraulics didnt want to engage. I started to disassemble it and came across this mechanism. Obviously there was some rust inside and someone added a oversized spring that jammed inside the bore near the hydro/mechanical knob so it was stuck in mechanical only.

IMAG3939.jpg


IMAG3943.jpg


Looks familiar huh? Even the knob and every single part inside looks to be the same.


I spilled some oil from the vice and since then the operation was a bit sponge like, obviously air inside. So I pulled out the piston for cleaning.

IMAG3962.jpg


The hydraulic piston(s) and cone spring washers to keep tension on the system when it is compressed/working.


The oil that came out of the vise was dirty and thick. What would be a suitable replacement? Normal hydraulic oil is much less viscous, I suspect that it might leak.

I think I'll ask Singer if he has seals for this vise as well.
 
Last edited:
Hi Botje,

Nice find!!

I have found it so useful to read the posts that others have made that I am delighted when something that I posted is helpful.

Yes, this looks exactly the same on the inside!!

I used some new air compressor oil, but I have no idea if that is the right stuff. The vise is still working well after 6 months, for what it's worth.

Cheers,
Bruce

PS: I have been watching Ebay for a vise force gauge/load cell, but never see them. Does anyone here know where I can buy one at a decent price??
 
Hi Bruce,

Thanks for the fast reply. Indeed, It is very useful to read about other peoples' findings and ideas here!

I am very happy with the find, I had been on the lookout for a good vise for almost 2 years. This one was in better condition than most I saw and quite a bit cheaper than the Ebay prices. With my best French language skills I wasn't able to get it down to a lower price but much cheaper and it would have been robbery. I think it was cheap because the seller didn't want to take it home!

The Takeda HVS vise has been sold since 1973 according to Takeda's website. I guess they copied the design (or part of it). It can be a bit fiddly to get it from hydraulic actuation to mechanical but that is probably due to the spring I used, need to find something that fits better.

Good to hear that the oil is working for your vise. I'll see what kind of hydraulic oils I have at home, there has to be some Tellus 48 and other stuff laying around.. The oil obviously wont be subjected to harsh conditions but it has to be compatible with the seals. Seems like the seals tolerate it, nice.

A few years ago I bought such a load cell for the lowly sum of 5 euro. It is one that only goes to 100N. Ideal for measuring valve springs (put spring between quill and load cell). Not enough for checking vise clamping force but fun nonetheless.
 
Botje, at some point I got a copy of the owners manual and spare parts list from Hilma for my vise. It is from a slightly later version (less rounded, more rectangular appearance) but also lists part numbers for the earlier model (keyed to serial number of the vise). If you think this would be useful and you want a copy, just send me your email address by PM. Cheers, Bruce
 
Hi Group,

I have a related question. I just purchased three (different, used) sets of jaws for a later-generation Hilma 125mm vise. They have identical dimensions to my vise, EXCEPT that that the two mounting holes are for M8 not M10, which means I need to enlarge them from 8.5 through/14mm pocket to 10.5/16mm. The jaws are hardened.

Is there tooling that will cut these gracefully, without being hopelessly dulled/ruined? Or should I pass them to my friend with an EDM machine (which I try to reserve as a last resort).

Cheers,
Bruce
 
Does that work? M10x1.5 to M8x1.25? I thought HeliCoil used the same thread pitch for the in- and outside of the insert/spring.
Maybe a TimeSert available in that dimension?
 
The point is that I could drill out the existing M10 thread and insert a Helicoil or other thread insert for an M8. I'd also have to make up bushings for my current pair of vise jaws.

I would still like to know if there is suitable tooling to enlarge the jaws from 8.5/14mm to 10.5/16mm.
 
Hi, I am a new member to the site and I have noticed the correspondence about the Hilma Hydrolic Vise. I have a very nice Hilma but the inside spindle is stuck. I am not sure as to the dismanteling procedure and was wondering if you could help. The vise is slightly different than the one here and just has a cylindrical Piston (?) mounted in the movable vise end ( meaning behind vise innenbacken.
German is also no problem as I have picked up alot from my perpetual buying on Ebay.de
Gruß, Liam
 
Hi Liam,

I suggest you post a couple of pictures, since it's different. Start by taking off the end-plate of the vise. This allows you to remove the inner and outer spindle assembly.

Cheers,
Bruce
 








 
Back
Top