How to release MK4->Spring-Collet sleeve ?

traditional-tools · Jan 25, 2014

Ok, this seems very basic, but I don't want to damage anything...

I have the spring collet sleeve in my vertical head, and it is stuck in there solid.

The ring is loose and can be unscrewed just fine, but the sleeve is stuck in the taper solid.

I have tried tapping the edge with a rawhide mallet, nothing. Even tried tapping with a punch to the inside of the ring, of what I felt pretty hard...nothing.

I also tried to wedge a screwdriver blade between the collar and spindle, but that doesn't seem to pry it out either. It is in solid.

I can unscrew the drawbar and the collet drops right out. I can insert/remove the collet with no problem, it's the sleeve that is giving me grief...

Any words of wisdom on removing it?

I will go on record as saying that I am getting to believe that using the spring collets in the MK4 taper is maybe not such a smart idea. If the taper gets stuck, it seems like a big problem. At least the MK4 collets fall out cleanly, as will the MK4 ER-40 collet holder I ordered from Singer...

Cheers,
Alan

traditional-tools · Jan 25, 2014

No luck yet, but turned the vertical head upside down on the mill and sprayed some pb-blaster to see if it would soak in.

I think it is better to take the patience route and not hit anything too hard.

I'm not sure how hard it is to take the vertical head apart, but may end up resorting to such if I need to.

AFAICT, there is no threads holding the sleeve in, since the S20x2 thread on the spring collet appears to do so...

I hate to hit anything any harder as I might break something.

Soaking might be the best solution for the time being. :scratchchin:

Erik · Jan 26, 2014

Sorry that I state the obvious (happens all the time), but the ring nut is to pull out the sleeve.
(the ring will be off when you use the mill - it's just for pulling out)
The machine in its lowest RPM to give resistance and then pull on the spanner.
Maybe you don't have the spanner?

What am I missing here? A picture for us non-english speakers might help.

Cheers
Erik

traditional-tools · Jan 26, 2014

Erik said:
Sorry that I state the obvious (happens all the time), but the ring nut is to pull out the sleeve.
(the ring will be off when you use the mill - it's just for pulling out)
The machine in its lowest RPM to give resistance and then pull on the spanner.
Maybe you don't have the spanner?

Erik,

That is part of the problem, I don't have a spanner...

However, I did hit the indent with a cold chisel and couldn't get it to budge...yes, lowest RPM. I also tried to pry between the ring nut and spindle, all 4 sides, but don't want to break something so gave up.

I'm not sure if coolant dried up in there and is holding it or what, but it's wedged in there good it seems.

Erik said:
What am I missing here? A picture for us non-english speakers might help.

I can take a pic, but will first let the pb blaster soak in if it can and try tomorrow. I really was curious if anything else holds that in, but I think it's just the taper that is holding the sleeve in, correct ?

Cheers,
Alan

Erik · Jan 26, 2014

From what I read earlier, I think you should get the correct spanner - after all, you WILL need it every time you use the sleeve.
And you should take it out only after the head has warmed up after doing some work. Then the spindle has expanded some,
and it should come out easier. The 4MT is very steep, so it really pulls in hard, when the spindle expands a little from heat.

I don't think I need a picture now. ;-)

I wish I had thought about it with the threadless 40 taper sleeve, which was stuck in my FP2. It was already mounted, when I bought the mill.
I ended up banging a spanner on the two flats of the sleeve, nearly crying my eyes out doing it. That sleeve will NEVER, EVER sit in
that spindle again! I have another, proper type with thread and nut.

Cheers
Erik

Trboatworks · Jan 26, 2014

Yeah- a spanner is needed.

I place the gear in lowest drive, place a dab of grease on the top of the nut and give the spanner a good whack with a dead blow mallet.

Here is the collet adapter nut which came on my machine:

And the spanner is in this photo to the far left:

If it is truly stuck (as in not just its normal tenacious hold), make up some wedges such as these and use a heavy 'C' clamp to squeeze together thus freeing the collet holder with no banging stress to gears or bearings:

Those I made up to free the collet holder from the spindle of my Hendey without the normal "get a bigger hammer" approach...
Works a treat.

traditional-tools · Jan 26, 2014

Trboatworks said:
Yeah- a spanner is needed.

I have one that will work I think, will see if that gets it off.

Could you do me a favor Thomas, can you measure the opening between the span ? I have one that seems like it fits, but slight different. I was curious how wide the span is on the real one.

Trboatworks said:
Here is the collet adapter nut which came on my machine:

View attachment 97719

Yep, same one. The collets drops right out, but cant' get the sleeve out.

Trboatworks said:
If it is truly stuck (as in not just its normal tenacious hold), make up some wedges such as these and use a heavy 'C' clamp to squeeze together thus freeing the collet holder with no banging stress to gears or bearings:

View attachment 97721

Those I made up to free the collet holder from the spindle of my Hendey without the normal "get a bigger hammer" approach...
Works a treat.

That's an excellent idea, I was thinking of trying to use a puller, but this idea is better and the same way the JT6 wedges work for drill chucks. This is a good idea, I like the idea of using a c-clamp.

Trboatworks · Jan 26, 2014

I will do Alan- I will be out in the shop tomorrow.

adrian · Jan 27, 2014

Hi Alan

If the collet sleeve is really gummed into the spindle it may not be a good idea to use the C spanner
(which is a 58-62mm size) and a large mallet because this puts enormous load on individual gear teeth.

I would suggest using a simple draw tube as shown.
Make a draw stud to fit inside a 10mm collet, I used an old T-Slot stud.
This needs to be a good fit as there is a very small shoulder inside the collet.

Remove the taper pin and retaining nut on the vertical heads draw bar items 1&2
This bar will then drop down on top of the trapped sleeve and will be used to push it out.

Assemble the collet with M10 stud in the spindle as tight as with normal use.
Place a tube over the end of the spindle with a large washer and nut as shown.

Simply tighten the M10 nut and the M10 stud should have enough purchase inside the collet to remove the stuck sleeve.
If not a helpful tap on the top of the heads draw bar may be needed

Good luck Adrian.

traditional-tools · Jan 27, 2014

Adrian,

This is very helpful.

If I knock the pin out of the draw bar, even though that falls down and is loose, I think that is how I would also disassemble the vertical head in the case I wanted to replace the bearings, is that correct ? IOW, is this how to remove the quill as well ?

In this method, once the sleeve frees, the drawbar will fall out with the collet/sleeve assembly, if I understand correctly.

This is kind of unfortunate, in a way...as you just about need a way to remove a stuck sleeve if you use the spring collets, and the spring collets are the only ones that are available inexpensively, BobY (byawar) sells them for $50/set. But the MK4 collets seem better in that regard, or in my case I plan to use ER-40 collets with a MK4 holder.

Obviously all machines have their idiosyncrasies, and this is one of them with older MK4 spindle nose. Odd that Deckel continued to sell the spring collets for the SK40 using a sleeve, since this must have been a long standing problem for Deckel users going back. My guess is that the steeper angle of the SK40 might help it be removed quite a bit easier than the MK4, so maybe that is not an issue.

Thank you for your post, I need to look at this either way, to get my sleeve free. I'm also working through the electrical issues, so have my hands full with this mill... :rolleyes5:

I'll post as I move forward.

Cheers,
Alan

Trboatworks · Jan 27, 2014

Hello Alan,

I tossed the wedges for the lathe on the mill to pull the collet holder- no fuss or banging on things:

Here is the spanner though the wedges work so well I may just use them in future to keep from having to hammer if the holder has taken up tight:

traditional-tools · Jan 28, 2014

Trboatworks said:
I tossed the wedges for the lathe on the mill to pull the collet holder- no fuss or banging on things:

I think I like this method the best, and these seem like they would be a good thing to have in the toolbox as I can see this happening more. I see your spring collets hanging beside your machine, so you probably want to keep them close by! lol

I have some aluminum that is 1/4", not sure if I have other square material without doing some cutting...I think it is thick enough for some wedges...I know steel would be better, but I don't think I have anything handy...will try alu. Looks like yours might even be alu...

Trboatworks said:
Here is the spanner though the wedges work so well I may just use them in future to keep from having to hammer if the holder has taken up tight:

Thanks for posting that, my wrench was too small, so good I didn't try to use it, although it might work...I don't know. Yes, that fits exactly how my L0 ring nut fits the wrench...the spanner basically wraps around the diameter with the tang in one of the slots.

Question for you. How much were the bearings you replaced in your vertical head ? Mine seems noisy just turning by hand, and I've heard the gears are noisy on these, but an overhaul of the vertical head might be in order. That seems like prudent maintenance to get get results out of the machine. I probably need to test run out after I get it running.

Cheers,
Alan

Trboatworks · Jan 28, 2014

Good morning Alan,

Yeah the collets are right there as they are by far the most used kit in the mill for me.
Those taper plates are intentionally aluminum- no risk whatsoever of nicking/raising a bur etc on the actual tooling.

On my vertically head which is needle bearing, I fully tore down and had to replace the two bearings at the top of the head which support the spindle from loads there- not properly spindle bearings.
These class five guys were $250 for the pair from Alpine Bearing on account. I get good pricing.

Shift the levers so the gears are not engaged at all and spin the vertical head spindle by hand or remove from machine and do same.

I don't know that you will hear needle bearing problems when hand turning (if you do- you have real problems..).
On my machine, the upper bearings were full of swarf and would noisily grate by hand turning- this may be your problem as well.

The universal advice is to use the Kluber NBU15 grease.

Edit- I hemmed and hauled about tearing down the head and decided to as preventative maintainence as the service history was lacking and machine showed long periods of neglect.
I am glad I did- the needle bearings were dry, had grit and were showing signs of overheating.

Given the complication of repair/replacement I am glad I took it all apart to put to rights all found faults.
The machine really is a pleasure to use and can do real work so worth all the trouble to sort out issues IMHO.

adrian · Jan 28, 2014

Hi Alan

I agree with you, the MK4 spindle is a pain in the butt. The irony is my machine was supplied with an MK4 spindle by special order, when SK40 was the standard option.

The problem is the collet sleeve or cutter gets tightened in the spindle by the rotation force. The more the drill or cutter bites in, the tighter it becomes in the spindle.

This is overcome on SK40 heads with two slots on the end face which engage with the tooling to stop it rotating and self tightening.

I have enclosed the procedure for adjustment of vertical and horizontal head bearings which is straight forward. If you are taking the vertical head off the machine it will be worth doing the horizontal spindle as well.

Best regards Adrian.

traditional-tools · Jan 29, 2014

Trboatworks said:
These class five guys were $250 for the pair from Alpine Bearing on account. I get good pricing.

I don't know too much about bearings, are class 5 good in regard to what was in the machine originally?

What I know is that when I turn the spindle by hand I can kinda feel the gears. I don't know if that is normal or not, I have heard that the Deckels are often noisier than some people think in that regard. Like it doesn't feel really smooth.

Trboatworks said:
Shift the levers so the gears are not engaged at all and spin the vertical head spindle by hand or remove from machine and do same.

Yeah, I was going to do that the other night, loosened it up, slid it forward, but the workbench was filled and I didn't have a place to put it, so just slid it back, and flipped it upside down to spray pb-blaster in...

Trboatworks said:
The universal advice is to use the Kluber NBU15 grease.

I have some I got from byawar here on PM, and a couple grease guns and one oil gun. I have a different oil gun for my Nichols, but this was a decent one from Switzerland. My Nichols is from Germany, but it's plastic.

I have almost a full tube of that grease!

Trboatworks said:
Edit- I hemmed and hauled about tearing down the head and decided to as preventative maintainence as the service history was lacking and machine showed long periods of neglect.
I am glad I did- the needle bearings were dry, had grit and were showing signs of overheating.

First I need to get mine running. But I know the sleeve needs to come out of the head. I should probably be focusing on the electrical. None the less, working through the issues and look forward to getting it going.

adrian said:
I agree with you, the MK4 spindle is a pain in the butt. The irony is my machine was supplied with an MK4 spindle by special order, when SK40 was the standard option.

A PITA is an understatement. hehehe But seriously, there's not too much difference other than the taper is easier to release, as I understand it, since it is still not standard tooling. As long as you use the MK4 taper it is ok. Since neither the MK4 or SK40 are compatible with the other existing tooling, it still requires fabricating the S20x2 thread on other tooling to use effectively.

adrian said:
I have enclosed the procedure for adjustment of vertical and horizontal head bearings which is straight forward. If you are taking the vertical head off the machine it will be worth doing the horizontal spindle as well.

Best regards Adrian.

Thanks for that info, seriously, much appreciated.

Here's an interesting comparison. On the left is a MK4 ER-40 Collet Chuck, the 3 in the middle are S20x2 threads, with a 5/8-11 thread on the small end. On the right is the threaded rod I got from PaulD, the creator of the DeckelDapter. I haven't tried to put the rod in my spindle as the sleeve in it it, but the rod on the right is .200" smaller and you can see the edge of the teeth are flatter. I don't know, Paul said this rod has been used by many people here...but the center plugs were bought from Franz Singer, and given they have an inch thread it makes it easier to use them as-is. With Paul's threaded rod I would either turn a smaller plug that is metric or just turn it and use bearing locker. But the ones from Singer are ready to use in an inch thread, so that is easier, IMO, for a marginal higher price. They were like $15/ea with shipping...

And with the ER-40 collet chuck, I'm not sure I will use the spring collets since they require the sleeve. :nono:

(I will have a set of those wedges soon).

This is the collet chuck.

Cheers,
Alan

traditional-tools · Feb 2, 2014

Amongst all my projects, I managed to get the wedges made, but still need to cut out the center so I can use them on the spindle sleeve.

I pondered on how to fixture this for the wedges, and opted to use this angle vise to hold a piece of 1/4" x 3" aluminum bar. I was getting a lot of chatter, and wasn't sure but then realized I was chomping this stuff at 800 rpm, about twice as fast as I should have...

I ended up with about 5" of wedge.

And I ended up with 2 pieces that were 2-1/2" wide, the large side of the wedge is slightly over twice as thick, so I think it has enough angle. I just kinda eye-balled it with the angle vise, didn't do any scientific measuring or anything.

I will drill/mill out a center hole in each and then mill one side out for use. I wanted to get that done, as I needed to re-fixture my mill for a facing operation on a rotary...and I need to leave that on the mill for a bit, but wanted to get the wedge portion done first, so I can finish without bothering the mill. Here they are showing the angle on the ends.

Cheers,
Alan (thanks for that idea Thomas, this seems like a nice thing to have in the 'ol toolbox!

)

traditional-tools · Apr 13, 2014

This is still proving to be a challenge...I made some wedges like Thomas did, possibly they are not enough angle on them, but I'm doing a pretty good job at f#@$ing them up...lol

Going to try resorting to the heat gun and see if he helps loosen things up...

AlfaGTA · Apr 14, 2014

Some thoughts:
First off Erik makes a good point.
Go to McMaster Carr and buy the correct spanner for the removal ring nut.....
Once you have the proper tool in hand set a heat lamp to shine on the vertical head and let it warm up for 3 or 4 hours......
Take the spanner nut of and coat the4 threads and contact area with a good quality anti seize!
Run the ring nut up and remove the sleeve.....Factory provided this feature for a reason.

Re-the spindle overhaul.....be advised that there are several versions of FP1 spindles. Information provided above shows only the needle roller
versions...there are also plain bushing ones and they are different in adjustment and overhaul.

Re-grease...may indeed be different for the FP1, but all needle roller Deckel spindles i have seen call for "Kluber Isoflex Supertel" as the factory prescribed lube.
Worn machines may be fine using the somewhat heavier NUB 15.....
Be sure to follow the steps for run in if the spindle is taken apart or readjusted regardless of the grease you use....
Remember that the needles are sized for your spindle to give the correct fit. Replacements can only really be fitted in the field by trial and error using sized rollers...this is
not a part that you can buy from the local bearing house.

Search this forum...some info on spindle overhauls FP2...but the info is good for needle roller spindles

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ills/fp2-spindle-assembly-lots-photos-206981/

Some of the photos have disappeared but some have been reposted by "T", and Jim Rosen .....

Good Luck
Cheers Ross

Trboatworks · Apr 14, 2014

Ross- thanks for the correction re-grease.

I did in fact use the Supertel in my spindle.
After the rebuild I had seen enough NBU 15 references on PM that I had begun to believe I had been in error.

Regards,

Thomas

Alan- zip me a address and I will send along a pair of wedges.
They do work a treat but I will say that when I have had the adapter in for some time and heavy use, it takes a bit of a blow to free it with the wrench.
I would venture that yours is not taken up so tight as to be beyond standard removal with the wrench and a firm hand.

traditional-tools · Apr 14, 2014

AlfaGTA said:
Some thoughts:
First off Erik makes a good point.
Go to McMaster Carr and buy the correct spanner for the removal ring nut.....[.QUOTE]
I have an ETM spanner which I got in a collet set recently. Good point though, but how to secure the spindle while using it ?

AlfaGTA said:

Once you have the proper tool in hand set a heat lamp to shine on the vertical head and let it warm up for 3 or 4 hours......
Take the spanner nut of and coat the4 threads and contact area with a good quality anti seize!
Run the ring nut up and remove the sleeve.....Factory provided this feature for a reason.

Click to expand...

I tried using a heat gun on high to warm it up, but what temp would be safe to use ? I don't think the heat gun gets hot enough to warp anything, but wasn't sure.

I'm not going to overhaul anything unless I can't get things apart.

AlfaGTA said:

Re-grease...may indeed be different for the FP1, but all needle roller Deckel spindles i have seen call for "Kluber Isoflex Supertel" as the factory prescribed lube. Worn machines may be fine using the somewhat heavier NUB 15.....

Click to expand...

I got a couple different greases, and a couple are Kluber. I will check to see what numbers those are, I think they are different. I also got a couple grease guns with grease in them, not sure what they are, but they are for Deckel.

Any tips on color of grease, or is it impossible to tell without the original container ?

AlfaGTA said:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ills/fp2-spindle-assembly-lots-photos-206981/

Click to expand...

I will check that thread out when I get home (on the train at the moment...getting the trans rebuilt on my car.

Trboatworks said:

Alan- zip me a address and I will send along a pair of wedges.
They do work a treat but I will say that when I have had the adapter in for some time and heavy use, it takes a bit of a blow to free it with the wrench.
I would venture that yours is not taken up so tight as to be beyond standard removal with the wrench and a firm hand.

Click to expand...

Let me try first, the pair I made was possibly too thin with not enough angle. First I would like to try heating the sleeve up more to see if it will come out.

If not, I might make another pair for fun, after all, it is machine work.

I appreciate the offer and will use it as a last resort.

I have some electrical issues I need to look at also. Seems that some of the contacts needs cleaning and/or the magnetic relay. I realized that one speed had the spindle turning in the proper direction (counter clockwise on the front horizontal spindle) and one was wrong. I did get that sorted out by flipping 2 of the wires on the contact block.

Cheers,
Alan (slowly making progress)

How to release MK4->Spring-Collet sleeve ?

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