how to remove 40 to 20 mm tapered sleeve from Deckel
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  1. #1
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    Default how to remove 40 to 20 mm tapered sleeve from Deckel

    I'd like to hear how you remove your deckel 40 to 20 mm tapered sleeve reducer ?

    There is a flat on it to grab with a wrench, but of course no draw nut like a 4 morse to 20 mm reducer has.

    If you have to knock out the tapered pin that holds the draw bar in each time you need to remove the sleeve, it would be quite an inconvenience....


    Markus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markusfu View Post
    I'd like to hear how you remove your deckel 40 to 20 mm tapered sleeve reducer ?
    There is a flat on it to grab with a wrench, but of course no draw nut like a 4 morse to 20 mm reducer has.
    You lock the spindle, put a wrench on the flats and start turning.
    ISO40 being a short taper, the ISO40 to S0 collet adapter should break after a few degrees of rotation.
    There was a draw off nut version available but practice showed that the expense for that was not required on short tapers.

    If you have to knock out the tapered pin that holds the draw bar in each time you need to remove the sleeve, it would be quite an inconvenience....
    That doesn't make any sense to me.
    With the taper pin firmly locking the collar the S20x2 thread should push the item held in the adapter out of the spindle.

    What do you accomplish by removing that taper pin?

    iso40_to_s20_taperr-adapter_threaded-plain.jpg

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    If yours is stuck, I had the same problem a couple years ago and there is a thread buried right here where Sean and some others discuss the cure at length. Damned if I can remember now how I got mine out, but I vaguely remember having to spray in alot of PB Blaster and wait a day or two.

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    If spraying is needed I recommend Kroil, it's devils stuff.

    I don't know if matters have changed but years ago it was direct sales only.

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    Default 40 to 20mm sleeve

    DON- I'LL TRY TO FIND THE THREAD

    ARNO-- I 'M NOT SURE that TURNING the SLEEVE INSIDE the spindle IS A GOOD PRACTICE - I'M CONCERNED ABOUT SCORING THE 40 SPINDLE TAPER.

    THE PART THAT MADE NO SENSE TO YOU:::: ON A BRIDGEPORT AND MOST OTHER MILLS, IF YOU UNSCREW THE DRAWBAR ONE TURN, THEN WRAP ON THE DRAWBAR WITH A RAWHIDE MALLLET, THE COLLET WILL USUALLY DROP OUT.. WHAT I WAS GETTING AT WAS, YOU CAN'T WRAP ON THE DECKEL DRAWBARS TO KNOCK OUT THE SLEEVE I'M TALKING ABOUT, SO IF YOUREMOVE THE TAPERED PIN NEAR THE TOP OF THE DRAWBAR, YOU PULL THE DDRAWBAR OUT, AND THEN PUT SOME TYPE OF KNOCK OUT BAR DOWN THE HOLE WHERE THE DRAWBAR USUALLY IS AND KNOCK OUT THE TAPER.........

    but who wants to to that every time you want to remove the taper steeve ??????


    Arno- kroil is easy to get in the states-- i do use it ---beware when using on delicate instruments , it will cause problems if you do not clean off after it does it s job.


    Markus
    Last edited by Markusfu; 03-06-2010 at 09:26 PM. Reason: added a note

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    Markus,

    I am surprised that you haven't caught on to the brilliant design of the Deckel draw bar.
    Because of the shoulder that takes the space of the cylindrical shank of an NMTB tool holder it pushes the collet out of the spindle.

    Your removal of the collar will damage the draw bar if you hammer it like a Bridgeport contraption.

    The taper adapter sleeve has NOTHING to do with the draw bar and must be removed after the S20 x 2 shank has been ejected with the draw bar.

    Look at is and think about it. You are trying to create major damage to your machine.

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    Default 40 taper to 20

    Arno- I realize the beauty of the deckel drawbar and of course I know to take the 20 mm shank out when I unscrew the drawbar.

    The issue we are discussing is " what is the easy quick way to remove the 40 to 20 mm sleeve without scoring the spindle that the 40 taper is sticking to....."

    That's why I said ' IF YOUREMOVE THE TAPERED PIN NEAR THE TOP OF THE DRAWBAR, PULL THE DRAWBAR OUT, AND THEN PUT SOME TYPE OF KNOCK OUT BAR DOWN THE HOLE WHERE THE DRAWBAR USUALLY IS AND KNOCK OUT THE TAPER sleeve that is not falling out "

    Is it making sense yet????

    Markus

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    Markus

    I don't think you risk to dammage your spindle by turning the sleeve to remove it.

    In fact, you probably won't need to really "turn" it before it falls down into your hand. It'just a matter of getting the two parts to move one relatively to the other in order to break the sticking of the sleeve in the spindle taper. The 40 beeing an "opened" taper, the smallest move will usually be sufficient.

    And that's the way Deckel intended the operation to be performed in the first place !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markusfu View Post
    Arno- I realize the beauty of the deckel drawbar and of course I know to take the 20 mm shank out when I unscrew the drawbar.

    The issue we are discussing is " what is the easy quick way to remove the 40 to 20 mm sleeve without scoring the spindle that the 40 taper is sticking to....."

    That's why I said ' IF YOUREMOVE THE TAPERED PIN NEAR THE TOP OF THE DRAWBAR, PULL THE DRAWBAR OUT, AND THEN PUT SOME TYPE OF KNOCK OUT BAR DOWN THE HOLE WHERE THE DRAWBAR USUALLY IS AND KNOCK OUT THE TAPER sleeve that is not falling out "

    Is it making sense yet????

    Markus

    Markus

    The drawbar can only be removed from the downside
    The sleeve has a 20mm hole trough And the drawbar has a S20x2 innerthread and about a 30mm OD
    So with the sleeve in place you cannot remove the drawbar
    You could give a blow on the drawbar with a mallet when the tapered pin and the nut is removed to remove a stuck sleeve

    Peter from Holland

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markusfu View Post
    Is it making sense yet????
    Yes, it makes perfect sense.

    Slight fly in the ointment, though. Since the female drawbar head is larger than the bore in the spindle how will you pull that through to the top?

    v-head_cross-section.jpg

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    Peter has it right, if you remove the tapered pin and threaded collar, you could tap the sleeve out using the head of the drawbar, as it only comes out the bottom anyway. I would suggest, if you are worried about turning the adapter, which nobody knows how long, or how well stuck it is in there.... I would make a puller. Take a bolt with a head just small enough to pass through the center bore of the 40 taper adapter, you might have to thin the head down a bit to get into the space between the draw bar and the top of the adapter. Then insert it up the spindle, slide the bolt offset to grab the lip, add a strap across the bottom with a ring to space from the strap to the bottom of the spindle (to allow the adapter to fall down a bit) and tighten the bolt and the adapter will pop out.

    I had to go through all of this back when I made an MT4 to R8 adapter sleeve for a Quick change master I wanted to use. I drove a MT4 sleeve into the spindle and then bored the inside to R8 configuration in situ. Then pulled it out and attached it to the end of the R8 shank turing it into a MT4, used the section of 20mm threaded stud to hold the sleeve tight and in place.

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    Default 40 to 20MM SLEEVE

    OK--- Brian- Arno - PETEREV- and the rest of you----

    I did not realize that the female draw tube had to drop out through the bottom... My mistake...oops!

    this sleeve has only been in a week. I'm sure that a little persuasion will get it out.. I want to be able to quickly switch between the 40 collets for holding larger end mills and then go back to the 20 mm for holding small drills, etc.


    Brian- a bearing puller with the two little arms and the drop hammer Idea will probably be perfect


    Arno- would you trust twisting the taper inside the spindle on YOUR OWN MACHINE ?

    There has got to be someone here that uses their deckels and switches the 40 to 20 mm on a regular basis???


    Markus
    Last edited by Markusfu; 03-07-2010 at 10:40 AM. Reason: NOTE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arno View Post
    If spraying is needed I recommend Kroil, it's devils stuff.
    But is Kroil "fabulous" and "revolutionary" ? And it doesn't have all the cute artwork on the can like Blaster does !

    Actually the Blaster works great but I have to admit it smells awful.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Markusfu View Post
    OK--- Brian- Arno - PETEREV- and the rest of you----

    I did not realize that the female draw tube had to drop out through the bottom... My mistake...oops!

    this sleeve has only been in a week. I'm sure that a little persuasion will get it out.. I want to be able to quickly switch between the 40 collets for holding larger end mills and then go back to the 20 mm for holding small drills, etc.


    Markus
    What about leaving out the tapered pin on the drawbar
    After scrolling the nut up you can give a blow on the drawbar and the sleeve drops out Downside is it requires 2 spanners to tighten your tooling
    A hex on the nut will make things easier

    You could even make a modified drawbar with some coarser thread and leave this one untouched

    Peter from holland

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    Markus:
    Alternate suggestion:
    Park those 20mm collets...they will make a nice display or be useful on your SO or SOE Tool grinder if you should have one...

    Me i would purchase a good quality 3/4" straight shank ER16 collet holder along with a full set of collets.
    Maritool who posts on this board has some nice stuff at good prices.
    Would also get a good quality drill chuck (Jackobs ball bearing, or Albrecht),and fit it with a straight 3/4" shank....
    This way you can use small milling /drills of any size up to 10mm without any trouble , rapid change and can go eaisly to a drill chuck without ever pulling the base collet....
    Little lost in length and easy tool change with a front close nut....

    Cheers Ross

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    If the lost of height is a problem you can always buy some NT40xS20x2 collets
    So you don`t need a sleeve
    I can provide you with a set Metric off coarse like it was ment to

    Peter from Holland

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    Default 40 to 20mm SLEEVE

    I hate to say this , but it sounds like we are admitting that the design really stinks if it is not user friendly???


    The project that I'm working on forced me to be able to switch from say a 1 inch hole that the 40 taper collet has to the small 20 mm collet sizes.


    Ross- what is the largest hole in the er collet system?

    markus
    Last edited by Markusfu; 03-07-2010 at 06:59 PM. Reason: note

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    ER's take anything...inch , metric , hex-a -decimal, number, letter or home made...They don't care...sort of the true multi lingual tool holding solution
    Accurate and at good prices...

    They are made in families to handle a wide range. The ER16's run from 0.0 to 10 mm and that takes 12 collets.
    There is an ER 25 , an ER32 and an ER40...all covering larger sizes as the numbers go up.
    Use the RE16 for all small tools in my FP4NC and for the larger tools i run the TG100's
    On my Romi i use ER 16 and ER 32's for holding all manor of reamer and drills off the tool block. Can even hold endmills for the flat bottom hole if needed....(got to do that on the Peugeot project for the can follower guides.
    ER 32 runs from 5/32 to 3/4" cap.

    Believe that the ER 40's will hold a 1" tool
    Cheers Ross

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    Ross' suggestion is a good one and I second the recommendation of the MARI tools- very good quality, great price and service.

    ER 16 covers .040"-.394" get an ER40 chuck and collets while you are at it, and you have the whole range from .040-1.024" with 2 chucks and a minimum of collets. Generally speaking ER collets have a range of .040" per size.

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    I'm someone who regularly swaps over from 40 taper to 20mm collets using the adaptor with the spanner flats. The adaptor is usually reluctant to drop out by itself, but a light sideways tap with a piece of 1" aluminium round - usually just a single tap - and it drops into my hand, sometimes not instantly. Maybe if that doesn't work, something heavier, like brass......

    - Mike -


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