Interesting new model Heidenhain DRO news...

Milacron · Mar 26, 2019

1. ND780 and Positip 880 discontinued.... ATech Authority is out.. all gone from them and Heidenhain...no more can be ordered.

2. The new ND7013 to replace the ND780 is great...but $1,927 !!! They have yet to sell the first one due to the high price.

3. The replacement for the Positip is not quite ready to ship but when it is, will be aprox $3,800 :willy_nilly:

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But fear not....ATech will soon have an adapter box ($115) that will allow Heidenhain scales to work with the AcuRite DRO203 ($895)

https://www.heidenhain.de/fileadmin/redakteure/de/products/Positionsanzeigen/ND7xxx_f_de_web.jpg

http://jmssupply.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/acu-rite_dro_300.png

ballen · Mar 26, 2019

The ND7013 is touch screen. Not sure that's a step forward.

rklopp · Mar 26, 2019

Interesting in that Heidenhain owns Acu-Rite. I wonder which items get made in what factory.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AlfaGTA · Mar 27, 2019

Touch screen...guess that is the end of Heidenhain DRO's in my world....Only one thing worse those stupid membrane keyboards....
Wonder who thought it is a good thing to have in an environment where the fingers of the operator are often oily...

Cheaper /easier , sure for the builder....A step backwards for the poor user...
Cheers Ross

Colt45 · Mar 27, 2019

I want real buttons.
Otherwise I find Heidenhain to be a great company with excellent products and service.
Interesting to note- Vectoring feature on the lathe compound is available on the Acurite Dros but not on any of the top shelf sine wave input Heidenhains, only the TTL models.

kustomizingkid · Mar 27, 2019

I personally can't even stand digital screens on dro's... there is something so pleasing about an oil school 8 bit style green display that is easy on the eyes and they don't jump around and go grey when you are creeping up on a number.

billmac · Mar 27, 2019

I spent serious money to replace the old Heidenhain scales and Elesta DRO on my Thiel mill with a new ND780 Heidenhain system. There were many reasons for this choice, but fairly high on the list was the ergonomics of the DRO which I consider to be generally excellent and suits my way of working well. Proper buttons are a big part of the ergonomics and I woud certainly not pay a higher price for a touch screen based system. I have not regretted buying the ND780 and am sad that it may not be possible in the future. I wonder if Heidenhain actually talks to its users before making these decisions?

Milacron · Mar 27, 2019

billmac said:
I wonder if Heidenhain actually talks to its users before making these decisions?

Word I’m getting is that Heidenhain doesn’t want to be in the DRO business, transition to AcuRite for that... both are made in the same factory.

Milacron · Apr 9, 2019

As it turns out, the Emco FB4 uses Heindenain LS 323 scales which output the rare TTL signals ... which will not work with ND 780, Positip or the new ND7013 !!

However, to my amazement I found out yesterday that Heidenhain has yet another new DRO just for TTL scales... the ND 5023 ! The surprise is this one is way less expensive (785 bucks) and not touch screen .

To top it off, the physical size is nearly perfect fit for the Emco panel... ordered one this morning :typing:

As as an aside, Heidenhain TTL scales will work with AcuRite DROs...(with different gender DSub9 connectors anyway) but at $785 I figure I might as well go with the Heidenhain box.

ballen · Apr 9, 2019

Milacron said:
As it turns out, the Emco FB4 uses Heindenain LS 323 scales which output the rare TTL signals

I'm curious, where are those "rare TTL" signals described? Does this mean RS-232 levels (single-ended)? Or does it mean RS-422/485 (differential) signals? The differential signals are more immune to noise and available from lots of encoders, starting with inexpensive (Sino) up to pricey (Renishaw).

PS: just looked at the LS323 data sheet here: https://www.atechauthority.com/pdf/ls323_prod.pdf#page=1

To me that looks like standard RS-422/485 signals (see page 19) so not "rare". Only question is, what are those three "sensor" signals on pins 2, 11 and 7?

Milacron · Apr 9, 2019

ballen said:
I'm curious, where are those "rare TTL" signals described? Does this mean RS-232 levels (single-ended)? Or does it mean RS-422/485 (differential) signals? The differential signals are more immune to noise and available from lots of encoders, starting with inexpensive (Sino) up to pricey (Renishaw).

To clarify, TTL scales are not rare in general but in my experience very rare for Heidenhain scales on manual machine tools.

ballen · Apr 9, 2019

Milacron said:
To clarify, TTL scales are not rare in general but in my experience very rare for Heidenhain scales on manual machine tools.

Ah, OK, I see what you mean.

I picked up on this because I just finished installing a Renishaw RGH-24X head + RGS-20S scale (1 micron resolution, accurate to 3 microns over 600mm) onto my cylindrical grinder. It's connected to a Sino display, and the only fuss was getting the wiring right. But it works perfectly. Both are EIA-422A (same as RS-422) differential TTL signals. So from my point of view, if that's what TTL means, it's common and widely available, and works well.

Milacron · Apr 9, 2019

ballen said:
So from my point of view, if that's what TTL means, it's common and widely available, and works well.

That's what I was hinting at by mentioning that AcuRite DRO's are TTL compatable....but as for Heidenhain, this Emco FB4 is, I think the first manual machine with Heidenhain TTL signal scales I've ever owned. In fact the Emco FB4 manual spec sheet list LS303 scales, which are 11uApp, so it was quite a surprise to find out my actual FB4 machine has LS323C scales where are TTL.

Colt45 · Apr 9, 2019

In the context of Heidenhain scales "TTL" generally means "5 volt differential Square wave signal" as opposed to the current 1vpp (voltage domain) or 11 microamp (current domain) sine wave signals (which are also differential). TTL scales usually have interpolation built into the reader head. Sine wave scales always do it in an external box (like an EXE) or at the DRO, which allows more sophisticated processing of the signal.

The sensor signals are there to alert the control of various problems, like cable failures, shorts or corrupted data.
RS422 (and the similar RS485) is a transmission standard, but there are nuances in the way various makers implement it, therefore results may vary.

Could go for the ND5023 (real buttons!) but they only make it compatible with TTL scales- everything in my shop is Heidenhain sinewave so I'll stick with the ND780, Positip and VRZs.

Milacron · Apr 9, 2019

Colt45 said:
Could go for the ND5023 (real buttons!) but they only make it compatible with TTL scales- everything in my shop is Heidenhain sinewave so I'll stick with the ND780, Positip and VRZs.

Same here...until the Emco...and even they used sinewave scales at the time my manual was published.

ballen · Apr 10, 2019

Colt45 said:
In the context of Heidenhain scales "TTL" generally means "5 volt differential Square wave signal" as opposed to the current 1vpp (voltage domain) or 11 microamp (current domain) sine wave signals (which are also differential).

OK, then TTL is a very portable standard. Provided you get the connector wiring right, both the displays and the scales should be interchangable between different vendors. That's certainly been my (limited) experience.

The sensor signals are there to alert the control of various problems, like cable failures, shorts or corrupted data.

I see. Are those signals documented anywhere for the Heidenhain TTL scales? Good to know about the next time I am mating scales from one maker with a display from another.

RS422 (and the similar RS485) is a transmission standard, but there are nuances in the way various makers implement it, therefore results may vary.

For an incremental two channel quadrature encoder, if the signals are 5V differential, they should be compatible. I can see potential issues with the reference mark implementation (how is it timed with respect to the quadrature cycles, what is the duty cycle, what is the sign?)and of course sensor signals to alert the control of various problems are unlikely to be compatible.

Colt45 · Apr 11, 2019

ballen said:
I see. Are those signals documented anywhere for the Heidenhain TTL scales? Good to know about the next time I am mating scales from one maker with a display from another.

Not much detailed info out there readily available, kinda come across it by accident looking for other stuff and even then it's just general info from what I have seen. Have to be an installer or a repair guy to get detailed info from the factory or reverse engineer it

Milacron · Apr 11, 2019

Colt45 said:
Not much detailed info out there readily available, kinda come across it by accident looking for other stuff and even then it's just general infofrom what I have seen. Have to be an installer or a repair guy or reverse engineer.

If by documented he means simply wire pinouts for the TTL scales, the answer is yes... each wire is a unique color or combination of colors. I have the info at my office. The Heidenhain TTL scales have 11 wires for Dsub 9 connectors.... the blue and violet wires are not normally used and apparently reserved for sensors of some sort. In addition to wire color as to pin out, there is info as to the signal or power function of each wire.

In fact I have to terminal solder Dsub9 connectors for all 3 scales on the Emco FB4 mill in order to utilize the new Heidenhain DRO as the original wire to Dsub arrangements are unique to the Emco DRO.

Colt45 · Apr 11, 2019

The pin outs are readily available, but the nuances of the actual circuitry and technical details are not.

Milacron · Apr 11, 2019

Milacron said:
In fact I have to terminal solder Dsub9 connectors for all 3 scales on the Emco FB4 mill in order to utilize the new Heidenhain DRO as the original wire to Dsub arrangements are unique to the Emco DRO.

Which will be a piece of cake compared to what I had to do with the FP2 DRO wiring !

Interesting new model Heidenhain DRO news...

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