James Bond Deckel

Bearbeitungszentrum Fraesmaschine Deckel Maho FP 5 CC/T 5 Achsen (Gebrauchtmaschinen-Angebot)

The term "James Bond" machine was used by Deckel internally for the FP5CCT with the automatic 2-axis rotary table and automatic sliding head (tool changes in both axis). While they made a LOT of FP5CCTs, pretty few had that the sliding head and even less that table. The above link shows such machine currently being offered in Germany.
Even if I had the ambition to own one (I better close my eyes), I would not favor that particular seller, one of the reasons being his chronic urge to splatter paint on machines.

Its odd that the screen shot shown does not show a readout for the table. Mmmmh?

An interesting machine in any case.

What is the positioning accuracy of those machines? These big Deckels, can they machine small parts like spectable frames to within .01mm ?

I have some projects in mind for the future (some ways into the future). My ideal machine would be under 10K or not too much over , be true 5 axis and have a work envelope that can accomadate a part that is 4-5 feet long and machine it end to end or atleast be able to machine just over half the part length. I was reading Milacron's posts on the MH600C and it fits the bill but for lack of tilting rotary table. This machine at 12.5K lbs is a bit heavier than ideal but comes closest to what I am looking for.

The below Maho is at a US dealer and is claimed to be like new but at 9 tons is too heavy. What it has going for it is envelope size and 5 axis machining.Is it true 5 axis? Simultaneous 5 axis, I see the motors for the rotary tilting table?
MACHINING CENTERS: Deckel Maho 5 Axis CNC Milling Center

I think you will be out of luck trying to find a true 5 axis machine for under 10 K, even if you mean Euro. I would think that even below 20K should not be possible.
Exceptionally I have asked for the price of that CCT, but dont have it yet. I am guessing bewteen 30 and 40K, possibly more. I hate it when dealer do not publish their prices. And they almost never do.
The bigger machines should be as accurate as the smaller ones, but huge masses are moved in small increments.

I could imagine that there are some very early stone age controlled 5 axis machines, that are affordable. Think punch tape, single line displays if any, hydraulic drives aso.

Martin P said:

I think you will be out of luck trying to find a true 5 axis machine for under 10 K, even if you mean Euro. I would think that even below 20K should not be possible.
Exceptionally I have asked for the price of that CCT, but dont have it yet. I am guessing bewteen 30 and 40K, possibly more. I hate it when dealer do not publish their prices. And they almost never do.
The bigger machines should be as accurate as the smaller ones, but huge masses are moved in small increments.

I could imagine that there are some very early stone age controlled 5 axis machines, that are affordable. Think punch tape, single line displays if any, hydraulic drives aso.

Click to expand...

Oh I was meaning weight under 10K lbs, shoulda mentioned that...

Yeah it is very annoying when sellers do not mention price . I don't understand it, it must be discouraging a lot of prospective buyers but dealers just don't seem to get it.

What I really would like is a tilting table 5 axis or preferably a machine with a tilting/rotating head . Are there any high quality machines under 10K lbs with such a head and able to accomadate a part 4-5 feet long?

I think a gantry machine with tilting/rotating head + moving table is ideal, but does such a beast exist under 10K lbs?

BTW Martin,
Could you elaborate on the sliding head? Where does it slide to ? I see what looks like a horizontal spindle?

Edit
Martin
Found another identical machine, looks identical??But this one is sold. Different German location so maybee different machine?
http://www.surplex.com/en/machines/marketplace,7,deckel-fp5-cct-tool-room-milling-machine-71149.html

Spud said:

The below Maho is at a US dealer and is claimed to be like new but at 9 tons is too heavy. What it has going for it is envelope size and 5 axis machining.Is it true 5 axis? Simultaneous 5 axis, I see the motors for the rotary tilting table?
MACHINING CENTERS: Deckel Maho 5 Axis CNC Milling Center

Click to expand...

That machine was (maybe still is) on the home page of Maho Doctor for years. A shame to have all that iron end up supporting an Asian Bridgeport head that someone grafted on. Screwball to have an arrangement where any coolant used and chips made, would just run directly on the floor !

Also, no freakin way that machine is 1991 year... looks more like 1983 judging from color scheme and large control console. Maybe the Bridgeport style head is 1991.

Think your requirements of being at or under 10K for weight and being able to machine a part 4 to 5 feet in length are totally opposed.....

Something that large having full 5 axis if only weighing in at 10k would be pretty spindly!

Also having a full 5 axis that long almost dictates a moving trunion style head.....
A machine having a rotary table 4' in diameter, able to tilt would be a pretty large machine.....

Maybe a nice Moog hydrapoint?
Cheers Ross

AlfaGTA said:

Think your requirements of being at or under 10K for weight and being able to machine a part 4 to 5 feet in length are totally opposed.....

Something that large having full 5 axis if only weighing in at 10k would be pretty spindly!

Click to expand...

5 axis CNC router would work and could do 16 feet in length..or more...if you threw enough money at it. But only good for non ferrous, plastic and wood of course. 5 axis CNC router with moving gantry and 4 x 8 capacity probably under 10K pounds. I have the below SNX/Komo 4 x 8 and with tool changer, drill block head and router head.... only weighs 6,000 lbs...but it's 3 axis, not 5. It has a tool changer that can pick up HSK taper heads that have infinite angle possiblities but are not programmable.



Control is Milltronics 7200

AlfaGTA said:

Think your requirements of being at or under 10K for weight and being able to machine a part 4 to 5 feet in length are totally opposed.....

Something that large having full 5 axis if only weighing in at 10k would be pretty spindly!

Also having a full 5 axis that long almost dictates a moving trunion style head.....
A machine having a rotary table 4' in diameter, able to tilt would be a pretty large machine.....

Maybe a nice Moog hydrapoint?
Cheers Ross

Click to expand...

I wouldn't need the capability of a rotary table for the part that is 4-5 feet long, just tilting capability. So if it was a late gen MH600C, then I wouldn't utilize the rotary function but would need tilt. Ideally a trunion style head is best but I have not see such a head on a machine in the MH600C size and weight and with similar work evelope.

Why does it seem like most Mfgs are utilizing trunion table for 5 axis instead of a trunion head+gantry (moving gantry or mving table) for machines the size of MH600C OR MH700S ? Is this style of head inherently less accurate than a trunion table layout? I was thinking that one could just superzise those hobby desktop gantry mills to MH600C size.


Martin, heres another identical or similar looking machine with Egin heinish for only 28,000 Euro
DECKEL MAHO FP 5 CTT DIALOG 11 in 34466 Wolfhagen Produktionsmaschinen

Spud, there's a book called "secrets of 5-axis machining" (see amazon) which lays out a lot of different ways of setting up a 5x machine. And if memory serves talks about 5 versus 3+2.

One of the layouts it does not cover is the rotary C embedded in a flat table with an A or B head. (The DMUs...)

A thing to really try to grok is: Do you need (want) 5-axis simultaneous, or 3+2, or a very adjustable 3-axis machine with very large enclosure and provision for clever fixturing? (3-axis retro-fit to an old floor type HBM - workpiece now has to fit on the floor...)

Work envelopes on 5-axis machines are complex - so by one measure the DMU 60 seems pretty small, then you realize a very large cylinder can be rotated 360d and machined on all sides, and it seems very large.

For reference, my DMU 60 with travels of about 24" and a table 1 meter long weighs 14,000# + coolant + tooling etc. etc.

Consider also the range of axis movement. Aerospace folks use machines with AxB heads, but they only move a fraction of a circle.
For example, Haas lists a VR-11B with 10' of X, and a head that swings +-32d in each direction. And weighs 32K# - and it's a haas. (Probably meant to pocket out aerospace stiffeners.) Cinci had (has?) a machine called an FTV that can have a similar config (and is rather heavier)

These are pretty different from the class of machine which is basically a rather large bridge mill with with a head that swings 360d around and +-90 (or more.) (Fidia, YGM, probably many others.)

Where does 10K# limit come from? (You mean the machine, rather than the workpiece weight limit, right?)

Bryan,
The 10K limit is machine weight and more or less an approximate figure cause I don't want to go above a forklift with 10K or 12K capacity. Plus factor in trailer capacity and full size truck towing capacity.

I'm sure it is possible to machine the future projects I am thinking of with 3 axis or 3+2 with ball nosed end mills , stepped cutting and form tools . But I would still like the capability to have 5 axis for small parts. Better to have the capability and rarely or not need it than not have it and wonder if it might have allowed one to explore different designs.

See the below style head afixed to a Maho MH600C would be Assuming ofcourse the CNC532 can accomadate it which I have no clue if it can.

The 1st one, the tritech head is aftermarket retro fit option for mills I think. The 2nd one is surely propriertary. The tritech might be too light weight for a MH600C but you get the point I am trying to make.

Oh, I think I get the gist of your thinking spud, remember, I have a 5-axis DMU as my, er, um, hobby artist machine...

I still one The One Machine into which raw stock is fed and completed parts pop out the other end. (As in feed aluminum in one end and the perfect machined part, anodized and laser engraved, pops out the other. )

Alas, the real world is more complicated. And sometimes, it's better to have more than 1 machine...

As for forklifts and trailers, at some point it's better to hire riggers, and get The Right Machine.

This of course requires correctly predicting which machine that will be and then finding it.

Similar looking heads for CNC routers below. Programmable C axis to rotate the head to any angle, no problem...but program of tilt angle not possible on seperate head of that nature that can be plucked from a tool changer.

Techniks HSK 63F Smart Line Vario Aggregate Head | eBay

Milacron said:

Similar looking heads for CNC routers below. Programmable C axis to rotate the head to any angle, no problem...but program of tilt angle not possible on seperate head of that nature that can be plucked from a tool changer.

Techniks HSK 63F Smart Line Vario Aggregate Head | eBay

Click to expand...

When you say tilt angle programing not possible, you mean not possible to program tool change for a tilted spindle? or do you mean one can't program tilt milling?

Can the 532 Philips control accomadate such heads?

bryan_machine said:

Oh, I think I get the gist of your thinking spud, remember, I have a 5-axis DMU as my, er, um, hobby artist machine...

I still one The One Machine into which raw stock is fed and completed parts pop out the other end. (As in feed aluminum in one end and the perfect machined part, anodized and laser engraved, pops out the other. )

Alas, the real world is more complicated. And sometimes, it's better to have more than 1 machine...

As for forklifts and trailers, at some point it's better to hire riggers, and get The Right Machine.

This of course requires correctly predicting which machine that will be and then finding it.

Click to expand...

Yes Bryan, I am looking for the one machine to rule them all! And by golly I am sure it is out there, just takes

But supposing one could stick that tilting rotary table from the FP5 CCT in the OP onto the Maho600C, then that would be it? Or a trunnion head onto the Maho's vertical head?

Spud said:

When you say tilt angle programing not possible, you mean not possible to program tool change for a tilted spindle? or do you mean one can't program tilt milling?

Click to expand...

Tool change of head with tilted spindle no problem, programmable rotation of head orientation once in spindle no problem (if you have C axis option...which can be retroffited on a typical Italian HSK spindle router head). But you can't program a change in the tilt angle of the spindle once the head is in place.

So, I guess that would be 4 axis machine with manual 5th axis ?

On that Tri-Tech head you show, I presume it is not tool changer friendly...but once in place can you program head rotation and tool angle on the fly ? (plus RPM obviously) That would be pretty amazing if so, but I don't see how the CNC machine itself could move the two diffferent functions.

Milacron said:

On that Tri-Tech head you show, I presume it is not tool changer friendly...but once in place can you program head rotation and tool angle on the fly ? (plus RPM obviously) That would be pretty amazing if so, but I don't see how the CNC machine itself could move the two diffferent functions.

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Tri-Tech 5-Axis Corporate Background[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The revolutionary Model 5414 Programmable 5-axis Head attaches to virtually any 3-Axis Vertical, Horizontal or Bridge style Milling Center to provide true simultaneous 5-Axis machining and drilling capability at a fraction of the cost of traditional 5-axis machines. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The M5414 uses the host machine's own spindle drive, which transfers directly to the tool at a ratio of 1:1. This portable head attachment is designed to handle the most complex machining including full 5-axis profiling, contouring, slots and holes.[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I wonder if the CNC 532 would work with this head ?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Simultaneous 5-axis capabilities include any 5-Axis capable CNC controller and a 5-Axis Post Processor available through Tri-Tech Precision Products.

Click to expand...

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Tri-Tech 5-Axis Corporate Background[/FONT]
[/FONT]

Spud said:

Tri-Tech 5-Axis Corporate Background[/SIZE][/FONT]

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Yeah you beat me to it... I went to the website and see now that the head is huge in size and incorporates it's own servo motor (s) to sure enough move it in two axis...pretty cool. There is even a video of someone installing it on a Fadal VMC. But no automatic tool change possible and probably cost a fortune.

Milacron said:

Yeah you beat me to it... I went to the website and see now that the head is huge in size and incorporates it's own servo motor (s) to sure enough move it in two axis...pretty cool. There is even a video of someone installing it on a Fadal VMC. But no automatic tool change possible and probably cost a fortune.

Click to expand...

The head by itself costs $50,000!
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/tri-tech-5-axis-head-advise-needed-121732/

Weighs in at a petite 150 lbs PLUS motors and adapters, just right for a forty taper sub 10k lbs. machine. Further more, 8.5 inches diameter? You will be hard pressed to beat a real "purpose built" 5 axis and will be at the same price point. You will have IO PLC at the very least, can you do the Systems Integration? Not to mention 5 axis programming isn't really what I'd call at the machine programming friendly. You'd do well to look into what a collision avoiding 5 axis CAM seat that actually works right costs.

Hello Guys

I really get tired of everbody saying I need 5 or more axis to machine something.

Of all my customers who actually have 5 axis only about 6 of them are actually doing

5 axis simuiltanious machining!!!

Most are using the 5th axis for positioning and saving on setups

If you have 3 axis machine with rotory table and proper fixturing you can machine 5 side of

a part in one setup.

I call bullshit to those people who think more axis will make up for not having no training on setups and fixturing imagination or hands on

turning cranks and handles then moved into CNC world.

A big wallet and little training do not mean you will can make parts

Can you program a 5 axis correctly the first try per program, with out crashing your machine,this level of knowledge and skill are out of reach

to the untrained basic machinist/tool maker.

Regards

DD


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