Knuth copy of a Deckel FP4M....yes, the M, not the MK....

Milacron · Sep 13, 2018

Picked up the latest Knuth catalog at IMTS on Monday and noticed the below. Isn't that bizarre, in 2018, to be making an FP4M copy including the now archaic gearbox axis feed ? Presume made in China but even still, one would think they would at least do a DC drive feed. No clue what it cost as Knuth stopped putting prices in their paper catalogs...which was one of their charms in the past...having the prices stated.

https://www.knuth-usa.com/fpk-5.html

Ironic the model name has a "K" in it seeing as it lacks the Deckel MK advantages, like Activ DC drive axis feeds and power drawbar. Maybe simply a matter of the Chinese not having a 4MK in the flesh to copy !

Kaszub · Sep 13, 2018

While we are here why dont you check out DMG Mori latest offering.
Guess what it is a Deckel FP4M Special Edition.

How much is the knot.. err Knuth?

Milacron · Sep 13, 2018

Kaszub said:
While we are here why dont you check out DMG Mori latest offering.
Guess what it is a Deckel FP4M Special Edition.

How much is the knot.. err Knuth?

Wow...I thought you were kidding....but it's for real.

https://en.dmgmori.com/resource/blob/128210/fe2807fcb004b47cd77290353cd13a8a/ps1uk-fp4-pdf-data.pdf

But, important difference.... DMG did it right....that is an updated version of the proper FP4MK machine, with hydraulic drawbar, variable speed axis feeds, etc.......interesting.

(Re the Knuth FP4M copy, just for giggles I asked this afternoon and it turns out they don't offer it in the USA.... but I got hints it would be somewhere in the $50,000 price range if they did)

Kaszub · Sep 13, 2018

AT 69K EUro for a somewhat original Deckel doesnt seam so bad. I really dont see myself spending over 100K for Kunz even tho their machine looks really nice.

Kees · Sep 14, 2018

The DRO is a Heidenhain, I wonder which model it is.

Milacron · Sep 14, 2018

Kees said:
The DRO is a Heidenhain, I wonder which model it is.

new ND7013 model... I saw it in the Heidenhain booth on Monday at IMTS Chicago... will replace the ND780.

Notice this special edition has no horizontal spindle (-) and no spindle gearbox....VFD driven apparently (+)

Milacron · Sep 14, 2018

Kaszub said:
AT 69K EUro for a somewhat original Deckel doesnt seam so bad. I really dont see myself spending over 100K for Kunz even tho their machine looks really nice.

OTOH, the Knuzmann equivalent to this would be about $90,000 and would have horizontal spindle (accessed the same as a Maho...remove vertical head and swivel it out of the way on integral bracket)

Peter from Holland · Sep 14, 2018

Is the knuth FP4M the Iranian version perhaps ?

It was offered in Germany for a while

Peter

On edit
Found them
MST.IR

Milacron · Sep 14, 2018

Peter from Holland said:
Is the knuth FP4M the Iranian version perhaps ?

It was offered in Germany for a while

Peter

On edit
Found them
MST.IR

I asked if made in Iran and the Knuth guy replies it is made in India for the Euro market.

AlfaGTA · Sep 14, 2018

Milacron said:
Notice this special edition has no horizontal spindle (-) and no spindle gearbox....VFD driven apparently (+)

Machine caught my interest until i read your post.......
No horizontal, No Way!!!!
Cheers Ross

Kaszub · Sep 14, 2018

No horizontal ...I just lost all interest in it.

Milacron · Sep 14, 2018

AlfaGTA said:
Machine caught my interest until i read your post.......
No horizontal, No Way!!!!
Cheers Ross

The specs didn't mention horzontal so then I looked more closely at the photos and sure enough, don't see a spindle where there should be one.

Bet if Sneebot was paying attention to this thread he would have noticed that before any of us

Colt45 · Sep 14, 2018

No horizontal on the DMG FP4M is a deal breaker for sure!
Amazing that they left that out, considering that they did several other things right.
Kunzmann has a horizontal spindle and a more sophisticated control, higher spindle speed and many more options available.

thermite · Sep 14, 2018

OT: We seek him here. we seek him there...

Milacron said:
I asked if made in Iran and the Knuth guy replies it is made in India for the Euro market.

Off-topic, but folks have been speculating about the hurricane and your Dogpatch facility and corpus safety.

Give IMTS still has another day to run, shall we presume you be where Hurricanes are not a "clear and PRESENT danger"?

sneebot · Sep 14, 2018

Milacron said:
Bet if Sneebot was paying attention to this thread he would have noticed that before any of us

ha ha, I'm a little late. I do notice that documentation on CD or hard copy is an option which seems a bit ludicrous.

thermite · Sep 14, 2018

sneebot said:
ha ha, I'm a little late. I do notice that documentation on CD or hard copy is an option which seems a bit ludicrous.

Depends. Some years ago I built a website for a European client. They paid extra to have it built in a manner such that it could not be machine-"ripped"- already a known-problem, competitors and independent distributors.

Within six months, they asked for a copy on CD they could give out at trade shows!

Expensive exercise, that was!

By contrast, a motorcar two or three orders of magnitude more complex than a CNC critter, (FIVE 'puters on the data bus in a Jaguar or Land Rover, not just one or two..) one can find full service manuals on CD/DVD for small change.

AlfaGTA · Sep 18, 2018

thermite said:
By contrast, a motorcar two or three orders of magnitude more complex than a CNC critter, (FIVE 'puters on the data bus in a Jaguar or Land Rover, not just one or two..) one can find full service manuals on CD/DVD for small change.

Lets hope that they had the good sense to get the Germans , or Japanese to do the electronics....More is not necessarily better..............
Cheers Ross

DeadMahoDude · Sep 23, 2018

What's so great about FP4M/MK anyway?

Control and feed system is complete crap, 1 feed drive for 1 active axis at a time only.
1980 it might have been OK, because of insane prices for servo and electronics at the time. But nowadays, why not put 3 servos and a somewhat modern CNC control into it and get all the advantages like circular interpolation, diagonal paths, thread milling... with it, when you need it?!?
I'm always a bit pissed, if I need that on my old Maho 700P/TNC135, but I understand, its 38 years old, in good condition and was rather cheap, so I can live with it. But buying such a limited machine nowadays, no way.

Futhermore, the vertical head on non-fliphead FPs looks extremely stupid. And without vertical spindle, it's even more retarded.

Milacron · Sep 24, 2018

DeadMahoDude said:
What's so great about FP4M/MK anyway?

Control and feed system is complete crap, 1 feed drive for 1 active axis at a time only.
1980 it might have been OK, because of insane prices for servo and electronics at the time. But nowadays, why not put 3 servos and a somewhat modern CNC control into it and get all the advantages like circular interpolation, diagonal paths, thread milling... with it, when you need it?!?
I'm always a bit pissed, if I need that on my old Maho 700P/TNC135, but I understand, its 38 years old, in good condition and was rather cheap, so I can live with it. But buying such a limited machine nowadays, no way.

Futhermore, the vertical head on non-fliphead FPs looks extremely stupid. And without vertical spindle, it's even more retarded.

First off, the MK is a very different animal from the M (although for some reason Deckel elected to use M nameplates for both models..thus some confusion) and second, what you describe you want is fulfilled by the Makino KE55... the ultimate combination manual/CNC moldmakers milling machine.

AlfaGTA · Sep 24, 2018

Milacron said:
what you describe you want is fulfilled by the Makino KE55... the ultimate combination manual/CNC moldmakers milling machine.

Sort of like "Moon Rocks" isn't it....Could have the absolute best features in the universe.....If you can't buy one whats the point.....
I am sure its a matter of application. Me ,i would still want a sensitive quill, on that vertical...Not quite ultimate IMO. No way would i trade my FP4NC for that Makino, antique control and all.

As to the complaint of the poster who pans the "Camelback" vertical setup on the FP4M re-pop....I find for some work it has advantage over the "flip head" setup...Mainly that it extends the vertical head space on the machine, an area that i often find in short supply.....

Cheers Ross

Knuth copy of a Deckel FP4M....yes, the M, not the MK....

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