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Long Reach work

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
So i have posted before regarding the use of "Sandvik Capto" tooling in various situations. Thought some might enjoy seeing an example of boring work having a long reach.

Machine is Deckel FP4NC. Early "Camel Back" vertical head setup. Machine is set to run horizontal. Largely because the part calls out to be run that way , but also because i believe that the
machine is most stable and rigid working horizontal....

Here is the job requirement:
Semi finished casting. Fits as the gearbox cover on a Type35 GP Bugatti. The cover is made with an extension that cradles the starter motor.
Starter has a round body. !00 mm that needs to seat on that extension.

Seat ares must be machined to match the starter body and at the correct height to set the starter pinion relative to the engine flywheel and ring gear....

Overall view of the setup:
Cover gasket face clamped to 2-4-6 blocks on machine table. Jacks and additional clamps to secure the extension of the casting.
Overall reach of "Capto" setup including quill extension: 428mm (16.85")

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Surface of the starter seat easily seen here...

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Opposite side view.....
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End tool is single point "precision " boring head. Has removable cartridges that can carry different styles of insert tools.
This job i am running an 80* "CCGX style positive insert graded (un-coated) for aluminum....

Size of the cutter was set using a stand alone tool setter "Walter" that has optical/DRO gauging for both the diameter and length .....

More to follow.
Cheers Ross
 
Bit more information about the tooling:

The "Capto" system is modular! You have a base tool holder that fits your machine spindle...sorry no Morse holders, but no reason you could not have a setup like this
for a manual 40 taper Deckel.....

The system has all manner of bits that fit to the base tool holder...extensions, boring bars,end mill collet holders,shell mill holders, saw blade holders....lots of flexibility....
The nice thing is its sort of lie lego's...you build up what you need....
For the job above i have a 100 mm extension fitted to an 80mm extension plus the boring head.......
Here is a shot of the boring head...Range from 70.5mm through 100.5.
Dial is direct reading on the diameter. .0004" per division....

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Here is the head and one of the extensions.....coupled together with a bolt in the center...all dome to use through the spindle coolant if ya got such a thing....
This shot also shows the slide of the boring head where the cutting cartridge and tool insert mount.....

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Here is a shot of the base tool holder as well....standard CAT 40 in this case fitted with Deckel pull stud.

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Finally a shot of the "Capto" coupling....
Sort of a three sided surface...all surfaces are smooth and blend. No sharp corners makes it very strong,
Surface is also slightly tapered both on the male and female parts. Further the end of the taper terminates in a square face.
When made up and pulled down tight, the tapers engage and the flat faces pull down hard against each other...makes a very rigid and repeatable connection.....

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Believe this system was invented by Sandvik, and is now an industry standard, being produced by a variety of makers....in short this
system works very well.....

Cheers Ross
 
Bit more information about the tooling:

The "Capto" system is modular! You have a base tool holder that fits your machine spindle...sorry no Morse holders, but no reason you could not have a setup like this
for a manual 40 taper Deckel.....

The system has all manner of bits that fit to the base tool holder...extensions, boring bars,end mill collet holders,shell mill holders, saw blade holders....lots of flexibility....
The nice thing is its sort of lie lego's...you build up what you need....
For the job above i have a 100 mm extension fitted to an 80mm extension plus the boring head.......
Here is a shot of the boring head...Range from 70.5mm through 100.5.
Dial is direct reading on the diameter. .0004" per division....

attachment.php


Here is the head and one of the extensions.....coupled together with a bolt in the center...all dome to use through the spindle coolant if ya got such a thing....
This shot also shows the slide of the boring head where the cutting cartridge and tool insert mount.....

attachment.php


Here is a shot of the base tool holder as well....standard CAT 40 in this case fitted with Deckel pull stud.

attachment.php


Finally a shot of the "Capto" coupling....
Sort of a three sided surface...all surfaces are smooth and blend. No sharp corners makes it very strong,
Surface is also slightly tapered both on the male and female parts. Further the end of the taper terminates in a square face.
When made up and pulled down tight, the tapers engage and the flat faces pull down hard against each other...makes a very rigid and repeatable connection.....

attachment.php



Believe this system was invented by Sandvik, and is now an industry standard, being produced by a variety of makers....in short this
system works very well.....

Cheers Ross

Capto is VERY nice, but expensive. The taper/interlock is a kind of tapered spline (someone correct me if I am wrong). I thought someone told me a C6 (not sure about other sizes) generates something like 10k lbs of holding force!

https://www.sandvik.coromant.com/si...wnloads/global/brochures/en-gb/c-2940-133.pdf

Here is a chart from Sandvik (it is real close to 10k for the C6)
 
Mike thanks for that link...nice info there.
Yes the Capto stuff is $$$$ .
I bought a starter setup years back to allow cylinder boring on Bugatti blocks, in specific type 57's. Have built up my tooling as needed over the years.
They , like most early Euro engines have no removable cylinder head, so bores must be run blind....a job many of the automotive machine shop guys just don't like doing because of the issues that
happen at the top of the bore where the transition to the chamber happens.

At any rate today i have a nice Berco boring machine that does most of those tasks, but i still use the Capto tooling for a variety of jobs....

Cheers Ross
 
More machining posts please Ross (and rest of the forum)! Interesting setups and machines, as well as parts to be machined....
Thanks for sharing

Br,
Thanos
 
No drawings....just past experience and knowing where things need to be....
Exact meshing of starter pinion here is adjusted by trimming the face of the gearbox cover to bring the gears into proper mesh.
Part is supplied by "BOC"(Bugatti Owners Club) "Brenertion Engineering" (UK) with extra height at the mating face of the cover....

Most of our work is like this....."Fill in the gaps"

Cheers Ross
 
No drawings....just past experience and knowing where things need to be....
Exact meshing of starter pinion here is adjusted by trimming the face of the gearbox cover to bring the gears into proper mesh.
Part is supplied by "BOC"(Bugatti Owners Club) "Brenertion Engineering" (UK) with extra height at the mating face of the cover....

Most of our work is like this....."Fill in the gaps"

Semi finished casting. Fits as the gearbox cover on a Type35 GP Bugatti. The cover is made with an extension that cradles the starter motor.
Starter has a round body. 100 mm that needs to seat on that extension.

Cheers Ross

Fixed that !00mm for you. :)

Most impressive work, I assume you are clamping where the starter extension goes (starter cases OD changed over time, model?). So the face depth & body dia all has to match (expensive!).

Looks like you have Jergens spherical bottom nuts & washers on your clamp straps → For anyone looking they are definitely worth the little money for setups.

In the 70’s I worked with madison tooling that was similar to the capto. They just pulled the head back over a short taper. In that case it was a cool concept but turned out to be harder than it looked (especially with the 3”dia x 18” long tooling). The larger 6” dia went up to 18” dia tooling & worked better. All the heads worked 2 tools (balanced rough & finish) or 1 tool (single point).

Cool post,
Matt
 
Hi Deckeleers,

Ross, Nice big photos, not a lot of text, just your style!

However for all those FP1 and FP2 owners to whom your thread must have caused deep depression, especially the ones that can`t afford to buy the X axis bellows, because they could not copy your machining antics as their machine tables are too small and they can`t afford all that pricey tooling!

However for all those amateurs that have holes in their shoes, there is a cheap alternative to that gold plated Capto stuff. All you need is an adapter to insert in the spindle, a length of pipe and an end piece to hold an adjustable tool and there you go!

It`s amazing how many new vintage cars are being created nowadays and the gearbox top that you featured is an example of this but only well heeled folk could afford your prices.

When I was in Provence working on the design of a huge twin gantry sculpture milling machine for carving out Mirage fighter wings from solid titanium back in 1979, I often visited the "Musee du Automobile" in Orgon near Salon de Provence on Saturday mornings. On one occasion when I was there, I found nobody at the cash desk and wandering round the back of the building trying to find somebody, I stumbled upon a type 35 Bugatti factory!

There were complete chassis, bodies, axles mostly newly made but no engines. Just think that these cars were passed off as genuine Bugatti`s and that there are people driving around in them that paid a pile of cash for them and thinking that they are the bee`s knees.

Life`s a turd!

Alan
 
HI Ross- as always a great post! I like seeing your set ups. You must have nerves of steel to work on pieces like this.

Markus
 
bentley1930;3302733 There were complete chassis said:
Nobody save an idiot would buy a car in this league without knowing its prominence....All the chassis and engine numbers are known as is their location and lineage.....
Reproductions happen, but they are known. It is not like folks are buying these cars off of Craig's List or e-bay. Brokers are the norm, and their reputations hang on any transaction.

Owners of reproduction cars,with few exceptions, know full well what they bought, as do the rest to the owners of said marque! Its in their interest to keep track of these things.
Cheers Ross
 
Speaking of long reach work, here's the longest one I've seen to date...
But what do I know ? ;)

Deckel S11 fraise looooooooooooongue.jpg

btw, I can't remember nor find how to manage the size of the inserted pics to make them a little bigger than those thumbnails. I know there's a command, but where is it ?
 
Nobody save an idiot would buy a car in this league without knowing its prominence....All the chassis and engine numbers are known as is their location and lineage.....
Reproductions happen, but they are known. It is not like folks are buying these cars off of Craig's List or e-bay. Brokers are the norm, and their reputations hang on any transaction.

Owners of reproduction cars,with few exceptions, know full well what they bought, as do the rest to the owners of said marque! Its in their interest to keep track of these things.
Cheers Ross

Hi Deckeleers,

Ross, You may work in a fancy vintage/classic car restoration outfit, surrounded by your beloved Deckels but your post indicates that either you are just being provocative or your knowledge of prestige car fakery is lacking. Firstly you use the word "prominence", I think that you meant to say "provenance".

I`ve been involved with Vintage cars for more years than I would care to count and have watched the development of the prestige car market from the time that they were considered just old "bangers", cheap cars that were bought by people that could not afford to buy new, or dedicated "vintagents" such as members of the UK club VSCC that have idolized vintage cars as a hobby since the 1930`s.

Now the real enthusiasts because of the huge rise in value of these prestige cars can no longer afford them and the new owners of these cars are rich industrialists or talk show hosts that just use them as a commodity or penis extension!

Nowadays, prestige cars have become a huge international business, providing jobs that project the humble mechanic into cult status and has spawned events like pebble beach where spectators swoon over the over restored cars and "experts" laughably pontificate over minute details of a car`s originality.

We all know that once something becomes valuable then, surely as night follows day, fake copies will be made! Prestige cars have been faked by several means over the years when the rules were less stringent than they are today. Typically they were cloned by splitting the cars into several, so that each had some original parts. The most favoured way to make a fake become "kosher" is to take the ID of a car that has been scrapped at some time and is suddenly announced as a "barn find" and nobody can prove otherwise. However these fakers can become unstuck if the real barn find is made.

It`s naive to say that all the faked cars are known, the fact is there are thousands of fakes out there that have their actual provenance lost in time and the car clubs know this but keep quiet about it because if the facts were made public then that would be the start of a frenzy of litigation that would be most unwelcome. If an owner of a high priced prestige car finds out that his car is a fake, he could sue the person that he bought it from for compensation but what happens is that they just keep quiet about it.

I know of several cars worth millions that are fakes and if I tried to reveal this then I could expect to be hounded, sued and declared personna non grata by the club so i`m keeping my mouth shut.

Alan
 
Life is a real turd for those poor souls out there buying pre war Bugattis.

Cheers, Brandon

Hi Deckeleers,

Brandon, brave of you to make this comment! I suppose that i`ll get death threats but i`ve always considered Bugatti`s as girls cars and prefer the deep voiced masculinity of a vintage Bentley, not only that, there`s a large back seat to pleasure your lover on.

Alan
 
What size is your capto? I am thinking to get c5 or c6 size capto stuff for my deckel fp4a. Need to collect some money first :D

Any advice for captos?
 








 
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