Where are the Deckel Drawings?

bentley1930 · Nov 28, 2017

Hi All,

Dan, during my recent visit to Franz Singer, I raised the question of the availability of drawings for the Deckel Machines and was given the answer that Singer has no original Deckel drawings. However, as everybody knows, drawings are essential for the procurement and manufacture of any engineering component!

I then delved a little into the history of Freiderich Deckel AG.

In 1993 Deckel merged with Maho AG and the company was renamed Deckel Maho AG.

In 1994 Deckel Maho AG was taken over by Gildemeister AG and renamed Deckel Maho Gildemeister AG. (DMG AG)

In 2009 DMG AG entered into a partnership with the Seiki Mori company of Japan and then taken over by them and renamed DMG Mori Seiki CO LTD.

There is a chance that the original Deckel drawings or photostats are in the company archives of MORI SEKI GmbH at wernau in Germany but getting access to them would probably be impossible unless you have a contact within the company.

I also contacted FPS Werkzeugmaschinen GmbH in warngau Germany (fps-service.de) Who on their website claim to be manufacturers and suppliers of spares for Deckel machines as well as reconditioning them and manufacturers of the FPS 300M which is a modern replacement for the Deckel FP1.

I spoke to Markus Szeike the brother of the owner who speaks English, he told me that they have no original drawings but can supply spare parts for the FP1.

This begs the question, does FPS supply Deckel spare parts to Singer? If so this could be the reason for the shockingly high price of spares from Singer as they will add their cut to the prices.

Alan

ballen · Nov 28, 2017

Alan, before I discovered Singer I bought a few parts from FPS. If I had gotten the parts from Singer instead, it would have saved me quite a bit. In every case where I have compared, Singer is a better deal. Cheers, Bruce

Jersey John · Nov 28, 2017

bentley1930 said:
This begs the question, does FPS supply Deckel spare parts to Singer? If so this could be the reason for the shockingly high price of spares from Singer as they will add their cut to the prices.
Alan

Alan ... can't really get my head around your comments! If you want to own a Deckel, Hardinge, Schaublin, Walter etc etc you should EXPECT to pay higher prices for spares and accessories than you would for more "middle of the road" machines or accessories. It's like owning a Jumbo jet but can't afford to fill it with fuel, the two go together in my experience.

As for Franz Singer, I don't think their prices are that high ...

Earlier this year I bought a genuine replacement FP2 table from them (Skimmed and in my opinion damned near perfect) ... it cost less that Euro 200, that in my opinion is a SUPERB price! Shortly after that I bought an overhauled FP2 Coolant pump (their eBay price EURO 450.00) ... I paid just over half that price, on top of that I've had many small parts like switches, taper pins, clips, screws all FREE with orders.

IMO, If you want genuine like for like parts then I'd expect to pay the price especially when it's for quality machines that are no longer in production.

Just my comments but Franz Singer in my opinion are NOT expensive! ... If they were they would not survive ... and who else can provide???

John :typing:

DJ2 · Nov 28, 2017

Alan:

Thank you for looking into the drawing issue. I believe the summary would be if Singer could get his hands on them, he would have. So I trust the drawings exist but are locked up in bureaucracy. As for Singer prices, I find that by scrounging, stuff I need comes from many sources in Germany, England, France and the US. Even local tool shops in Canada have turned up amazing stuff. I follow the trail, so Singer is a great resource but not the only one.

Thanks again, Dan

AlexO · Nov 28, 2017

bentley1930 said:
Hi All,

Dan, during my recent visit to Franz Singer, I raised the question of the availability of drawings for the Deckel Machines and was given the answer that Singer has no original Deckel drawings. However, as everybody knows, drawings are essential for the procurement and manufacture of any engineering component!

I then delved a little into the history of Freiderich Deckel AG.

In 1993 Deckel merged with Maho AG and the company was renamed Deckel Maho AG.

In 1994 Deckel Maho AG was taken over by Gildemeister AG and renamed Deckel Maho Gildemeister AG. (DMG AG)

In 2009 DMG AG entered into a partnership with the Seiki Mori company of Japan and then taken over by them and renamed DMG Mori Seiki CO LTD.

There is a chance that the original Deckel drawings or photostats are in the company archives of MORI SEKI GmbH at wernau in Germany but getting access to them would probably be impossible unless you have a contact within the company.

I also contacted FPS Werkzeugmaschinen GmbH in warngau Germany (fps-service.de) Who on their website claim to be manufacturers and suppliers of spares for Deckel machines as well as reconditioning them and manufacturers of the FPS 300M which is a modern replacement for the Deckel FP1.

I spoke to Markus Szeike the brother of the owner who speaks English, he told me that they have no original drawings but can supply spare parts for the FP1.

This begs the question, does FPS supply Deckel spare parts to Singer? If so this could be the reason for the shockingly high price of spares from Singer as they will add their cut to the prices.

Alan

How does that "beg the question" ? I find it very hard to believe they don't have drawings - drawings weren't a secret and they couldn't sell to certain markets if they didn't supply drawings.

bentley1930 · Nov 29, 2017

AlexO said:
How does that "beg the question" ? I find it very hard to believe they don't have drawings - drawings weren't a secret and they couldn't sell to certain markets if they didn't supply drawings.

Hi All,

Alex, Companies do not give out drawings for many reasons! eg, They contain secret information about manufacturing processes, don`t want out of date drawings in circulation,etc,etc.

In the case of companies like Singer or FPS, they will have created drawings for components that they have measured up for manufacture and don`t want to give out this information as they wish to earn money from selling the re manufactured components which is understandable!

In the case of obsolete machinery such as Deckel The drawings may have been destroyed or are preserved in company archives as explained in my previous post. These companies usually do not have the facility to retrieve and send out archived drawings but we can`t find this out until we know where the drawings are, can we?

Where do you think the drawings are?

Alan

Ps, you can delete parts of the quote that are not required, this saves space on the server!

quarkgluonplasma · Nov 29, 2017

Hey all,

does, by the way, anybody know what the FP on our Deckel machines stands for?

Best,

Stefan

AlexO · Nov 29, 2017

bentley1930 said:
Hi All,

Alex, Companies do not give out drawings for many reasons! eg, They contain secret information about manufacturing processes, don`t want out of date drawings in circulation,etc,etc.

My father ( who worked for Deckel ) was between 1965 and up to his retirement in 1992 maintenance and purchasing Manager for a number of plants. Last one, a very large plant. No new machine would be purchased without full drawings, maintenance manuals, service manuals, contractual guarantees etc. In other words, if they were not thrown away there are plenty drawings - trick is to know where to look for them. The idea that German businesses manufacturing spares were not able to get original drawings ( all they had to do is ask ) is ludicrous.

rotarySMP · Nov 29, 2017

There are various types of drawings. Manufacturing drawings for components stating materials, heat treatment, tolerances and surface finishes would be more valuable to a support company than assembly drawings showing how it goes together.

I have a set of assembly drawings for the MAHO MH400E, which I received privately, and they have Cyrillic assembly names. This was probably an example where they were required to provide drawings to be allowed into the market. The drawings have almost no information on them (No bearing numbers for example), so I am sure there was the game which Deckel had to provide drawings, and did there best to provide useless one, in the hope that the persons accepting them had no clue.

I would not be suprised if the overhaul companies have quite extensive sets of production drawings, and want to keep quiet about how they gained possesion

They may also have reverse engineered tolerances, materials and drawn there own, for the most commonly needed worn components. The will have seen enough parts to have a good knowledge of the tolerance stack up, materials, etc of Deckel machines. They aren't rocket science.
Mark

ballen · Nov 29, 2017

quarkgluonplasma said:
Anybody know what the FP on our Deckel machines stands for?

I believe it stands for "Fräsmaschine Patrize".

Fräsmaschine = milling machine
Patrize = punch (the male part of a punch and die combo).

The word Patrize comes from the Latin Pater (father) in the sense that the punch is a master that makes copies of itself.

My understanding is that the earliest FP machines were used to make punches in the Deckel factory, which was manufacturing high-speed shutters for the camera (both fixed and movie) and other high-precision equipment.

These were typically done by:
(a) set tooling into cutting spindle
(b) shift/rotate work in X/Y
(c) turn on cutting spindle, move work up and down in Z to remove material
(d) if not finished, return to step a.

Cheers, Bruce

AlexO · Nov 29, 2017

ballen said:
My understanding is that the earliest FP machines were used to make punches in the Deckel factory, which was manufacturing high-speed shutters for the camera (both fixed and movie) and other high-precision equipment.

Cheers, Bruce

Your understanding is spot on.

AlexO · Nov 29, 2017

rotarySMP said:
I have a set of assembly drawings for the MAHO MH400E, which I received privately, and they have Cyrillic assembly names. This was probably an example where they were required to provide drawings to be allowed into the market.

i.e. to get payed.

AlfaGTA · Nov 29, 2017

Have dealt with "drawings" for obsolete mechanical devices for much of my adult career.....Not machine tools, but automobiles...
While conditions may vary depending on where the company is located, in my experience, if the company is still in existence
"most" are quite reluctant to release any drawings......

Among other things is the not so little problem of liability. In a world now run by lawyers, companies are rightly nervous about having any factory developed information out in the public domain....
Even parts made by outside sources can carry connected liability if made from original drawings...
It might be a stretch, but really there is no real benefit for the company to "expose" itself....

Best chance to secure drawings IMO ,if they still exist (big question as house cleaning often occurs during or after a merger) would be to form something like a "Non Profit" Deckel Historical Society, who's mission could be the preservation and presentation of the history of the "Deckel" company . ...A "legit" preservation group would have a more legitimate position from which to secure the original drawings and company documents or at the least copies of same....

Cheers Ross

bentley1930 · Nov 29, 2017

AlexO said:
My father ( who worked for Deckel ) was between 1965 and up to his retirement in 1992 maintenance and purchasing Manager for a number of plants. Last one, a very large plant. No new machine would be purchased without full drawings, maintenance manuals, service manuals, contractual guarantees etc. is ludicrous.

Alex,

You have probably chosen to misunderstand my post or English is not your mother tongue, I`ve read some of your posts and realise that you have extreme views.

To say that each machine sold came with a complete set of drawings! THAT IS RIDICULOUS!!!!!

Alan

bentley1930 · Nov 29, 2017

AlfaGTA said:
Have dealt with "drawings" for obsolete mechanical devices for much of my adult career.....Not machine tools, but automobiles...

Best chance to secure drawings IMO ,if they still exist (big question as house cleaning often occurs during or after a merger) would be to form something like a "Non Profit" Deckel Historical Society, who's mission could be the preservation and presentation of the history of the "Deckel" company . ...A "legit" preservation group would have a more legitimate position from which to secure the original drawings and company documents or at the least copies of same....

Cheers Ross

Hi All,

Ross has quite rightly pointed out what has happened with obsolete drawings of automobiles. Sometimes the drawings are donated to a club that preserve this valuable information and also earn money from selling copies of the drawings. I`m a member of the Bentley Drivers Club and have been for many years, the club has a large archive of original detail drawings of Bentley parts but these are not the originals!
What happened was that when Rolls Royce bought Bentley Motors in 1931 due to a conspiracy between Wolf Barnato and Rolls Royce, WO Bentley, in a black rage, made a bonfire of all the originals of the Bentley drawings in the car park and the drawings that the club now have are the prints from the Bentley inspection department, Donated by Rolls Royce.
Sadly, most of the assembly drawings have been lost but the club had all the remaining drawings computerised and sell copies at a whopping price.

No doubt that a Deckel Owners Club could be established as Ross has suggested but we still have the problem, where are the drawings?

Alan

bentley1930 · Nov 29, 2017

Jersey John said:
Alan ... can't really get my head around your comments!

John, I\m surprised that you find Singers prices so reasonable when last year you did not buy that Burnerd Multisize collet chuck for your Boxford VSL from me because you thought that the postage from Norway was too much! I Know that living in Jersey has a requirement of being quite well heeled so that you are probably happy to and able to pay over the odds for spare parts!

As for Franz Singer, I don't think their prices are that high

You should read my posts about an FP1 X axis drive shaft that cost Euro 1400 from Singer!

Earlier this year I bought a genuine replacement FP2 table from them (Skimmed and in my opinion damned near perfect) ... it cost less that Euro 200,

The price for an FP2 table from Singer is shown as Euro 1200 on his website, You must have twisted his arm quite roughly, but why didn`t you pay the full price and help him out?

Just my comments but Franz Singer in my opinion are NOT expensive! ... and who else can provide???

Yes John he is almost tho only source, monopolies are always expensive

John

I rest my case,

Alan

Jersey John · Nov 29, 2017

AlexO said:
No new machine would be purchased without full drawings, maintenance manuals, service manuals, contractual guarantees etc.

Alex ... I agree that all new machines would ship with Maintenance manuals, Service manuals and Guarantees ... BUT never ever have I known and severely doubt any manufacture supplying full drawings!!

John :typing:

AlexO · Nov 29, 2017

bentley1930 said:
Alex,

You have probably chosen to misunderstand my post or English is not your mother tongue, I`ve read some of your posts and realise that you have extreme views.

To say that each machine sold came with a complete set of drawings! THAT IS RIDICULOUS!!!!!

Alan

Well, you got me there - English is my 3rd language. But yes, each machine bought had to have the "paperwork" I mentioned. Maybe it was ridiculous, I couldn't say. But if you wanted to supply say 60 lathes, you had to attach drawings to the contract. I think you took the extreme position that if say 100 drill presses were bought, 100 sets of drawings would be supplied. That was not the case - a couple of sets of drawings would be supplied if all the drill presses were of the same type.

AlexO · Nov 29, 2017

bentley1930 said:
No doubt that a Deckel Owners Club could be established as Ross has suggested but we still have the problem, where are the drawings?

Make friends in the Czech Republic.

Jersey John · Nov 30, 2017

bentley1930 said:
I rest my case, Alan

Alan you really need to think before you write! What a load of "Bo$%^cks" about Jersey, my location has absolutely NOTHING to do with it and clearly you know NOTHING about my circumstances or you'd not even mention it! ... I believe the saying is "A little knowledge is dangerous"

There was no need or relevance in mentioning the Burnerd Chuck in this thread ... or is it sour grapes :angry:

There is no comparison between a piece to tooling for a Boxford and a piece for a Deckel. The Burnerd chuck was a "Nice to have that did not warrant stupid shipping charges"

The Deckel table was a "NEED" to have ... and yes expensive shipping but that's life!

... and NO I did not apply any heavy persuasion to Franz ... Perhaps it's the way you speak to people that lends you to not getting discount or the fact that you whinge at every price offered!

Sorry but your comments have got under my skin ... keep to the facts and life will be fine!!!

John :typing:

Where are the Deckel Drawings?

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