Moving our "new" Deckel FP2NC
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    Default Moving our "new" Deckel FP2NC

    Hi all

    My first post here.

    My son and I are about to move the recently purchased FP2NC int our workshop. All has to go down a hole (access hatch) of 1020 x 1250 mm hole. To make it worse, the hole can be accessed through a garage, that has only 2140 mm height. The door is even less.
    I have installed a hoist attachment point that can handle up to 2000 kg. We have a suitable chain lift (2000kg, some hand winches (900 kg), lifting belts of various lengths, all 3000 kg, ratchet straps, a workshop crane (max 2000 kg) and a pallet trolley.

    The parts that need to go down the hole are:
    • Main machine, with following part dismounted:
      • "Flip head":
        • I think the cable on top of the spindle is the power to the spindle motor, am I right?
        • I think, removing the flip head should not be too complicated. Just secure it by crane, remove the screws, the guide behind the flip head and it should come off. Am I right?
        • splash cabinet, should come off downwards from the table
        • standard table, secure by crane, remove screws and we should be done
        • handles to manual wheels or wheels as a hole
        • x-axis motor, previous owner has done it before and will help, so should be not a big deal
        • We might have to till the machine by some 30 to max 45°. Will this cause any problem (oil baths?)?
      • complete dialog 4 control system
        • Seems to be a major PITA
        • There are connectors in the electro cabinet, but none on the machine.
        • has anyone done it before?
    • electro cabinet, I guess, should not be a big issue, as there are connectors


    We will shoot a ton of pictures, in order to get it all back together when in the workshop. We have no problem to provide the here

    greez chris
    dsc_9376.jpgdsc_9375.jpgdsc_9377.jpg

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  3. #2
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    Some thoughts:
    First off, remove the main side panels (plastic). They are fragile and easily broken. Will require removal of the hand wheels from the operators side ("X" & "Y")
    There is a large hole through the main casting toward the front of the machine and almost to the top of the casting.
    These holes were covered by plastic plugs when the side panels were in place.
    That through hole is the lifting point for the machine. A good technique would to pass a heavy steel bar through this hole. Then use the bar as a sort of spreader for heavy lifting straps, one on each side
    placed out on the bar wide enough to clear the machine parts and avoid damage.

    Machine can safely be tilted (if necessary) using this lift point as a pivot point.

    As to the vertical head....think you will get the same clearance by just rotating the head 90* to make the spindle parallel with the horizon....to do so loosen the 10 mm bolts (6) that allow the head to swivel.
    Rotate the head and snug the bolts.
    Removing the flip portion will require a fair bit more work, and will gain little.
    The "cable" on top is not a cable, but rather a hydraulic hose for the tool change.

    As to oil...there is a tank for the way lube that will likely spill if very full. You will see this tank when the side cover is removed from the non operators side.
    Also there is a tank in the machine base for the hydraulic oil/pump. Tank is cast into the base and is located below the lube oil tank. It will also likely spill some if the
    machine is tilted to excess.
    Finally there is the oil in the main spindle gearbox. Depending on the direction of tilt this oil will likely get into the milling spindles and contaminate the grease there (horizontal spindle)
    I would drain this oil sump before doing any serious tilting of the machine.....
    Drain plug is in the bottom of the "Y" slide. Remove the bellows (snaps front and rear) to expose the drain plug.

    Removal of cables from the main electrical cabinet is easy. Everything except the ground wires just plug in.
    Removal of the operators station is relatively easy. All electronic cables connected there unplug and can be fed through the bottom of the carrier arm by removing the outer housing
    clamp.
    Be sure you label all the cables and note their locations.

    Removal of any additional cables from the machine will be difficult. Everything else is set into connectors requiring pin extraction, and keeping track of literally hundreds of wires........
    Have done this and i would not recommend unless you have lots of time, patience and are very careful to label everything.

    Small sample of the amount of wiring in these machines....



    Good luck.
    Cheers Ross

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    Sometimes it is easier to just enlarge the opening
    At least it will be not that risky and pretty easy to determen what it involves

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Sometimes it is easier to just enlarge the opening
    At least it will be not that risky and pretty easy to determine what it involves

    Peter
    Peter,
    Thanks for the idea, I like people who think out of the beaten track :-). I considered opening an access hatch right on top of the place the machine is intended to stay. Garage floor is the workshop ceiling, a concrete slab. I checked the reinforcement, it could be done. However, the owner of the building (not mine) would not allow it, not for the time being at least.

    We have also considered moving our workshop. But the only location available a) for a reasonable price and b) not too far away from our home is a shack without heating and quite windy if I may say so.

    Conclusion: We keep our workshop where it is now and almost certainly will have to bring he machine down the existing, confined access hatch.

    Greez
    chris

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    Ross
    Perfect layout of possibilities. Thanks a ton. I will wade through it when we get to machine again, probably the coming weekend.
    A quick thought Regarding the flip head: hydraulics need to be airless. We will 99% sure leave the head on and tilt it by 90°. Your description makes it easy and matches what I see in the manual.

    Greez
    chris

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    The tool change hydraulic line is not hard to bleed. So don't let that issue change your approach.
    To bleed (effective enough) with the hose connected to the cylinder fitting, engage the tool release. (pressurize the hydraulics for the vertical)
    Loosen the connection fitting enough to allow oil to escape (and any trapped air) Keep a rag around the hose to catch the oil.
    With pressure maintained tighten the fitting.
    Cycle the tool change several times and repeat the bleed if the response releasing the tool seems slow.

    There is also a work light mount that will add to the machine height....
    That mount unscrews from the sliding part of the flip mechanism. Best to use a round pin "hook" spanner for this, but a round bar that just fits the cross hole in the base of the support may get the job done.

    Keep us posted to your progress.
    Cheers Ross

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    Hi all

    Long time no see, so here is an update:

    Thanks to covid we could get the machine to our location only two weeks ago. Ross's tip in tilting the spindle by 90° made it possible to move the machine into the garage, so thanks a ton!

    I asked the electrician to lay an additional line from mains into the workshop, as the existing line seems a bit weak. We got 25A @ 380V = max ~9 - 10 kW, where the manual says 16 kW. I was promised this would be done next week.

    I have moved the electric cabinet, drawer cabinet, splash guard cabin etc. already into the workshop. This weekend I want to move the very machine down the hatch, at least I hope we can do it this weekend. We really need to:

    • remove the table
    • the x axis motor at least
    • most probably the x axis guide too
    • spindle
    • y axis as a whole
    • control, including arms, but I think, we can leave the cables on, if we can retact them through the protection hoses and fix them to the rest of the machine


    There might be more to come, but you will get notified as we go.

    I thought, I'd move all the axis manually to see where they are fixed and how we could remove them. X and Z are moving, Y not. And that could provide a major problem. I pull out the hand wheel and turn. It ratchets along but the head is not moving. Can't find a locking scre or similar. In the manuals I have not found a clew and the internet remains quiet too. So:

    Is there some kind of transport lock? If: where and how can it be released? If not, what can block the y axis movement and how can it be released?

    greez
    chris

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    [email protected] is massive overkill for that tiny machine with 3hp spindle motor. I run a FP4NC with 10hp spindle off a 16A line, fuses never tripped so far. You can probably even run it from a 10A line, the labels on most machines are massively overrated.

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    All the servo motors on the FP-NC's have built in brakes to hold the axis moves stationary.
    They require power to release as the brake is a permanent magnet working against a electro-magnet.
    Some brakes are stronger than others...Some can be overpowered by the hand wheels, others not.
    If you want to move the axis using the hand wheels you must either power the brake (24vdc) or disconnect the servo from the screw.
    Note that the brake is polarity sensitive...won't release if the connected power is not oriented correctly....
    Normally when the machine is powered and the hand wheel is pulled out the brake is powered so the axis can be moved....

    The clicking you hear and feel when turning the hand wheel is the overload clutch. These machines have an overload clutch that slips or rather jumps to protect the axis and the ball screw if there is a collision or overload.
    Do not continue trying to move the axis and make the clutch slip...too much of this and the ramps of the clutch can become worn and its holding power reduced.

    If power is not an option, then suggest you remove the "Y" axis servo and its drive belt. That will allow the nut on the screw to rotate and the axis will move. Note the screw does not rotate, rather the nut.
    There are no mechanical locks on any of the slides other than the brake in each servo.

    Be cautioned not to remove the drive belt off the "Z" axis screw without first blocking the vertical slide to hold it from freewheeling down as soon as the belt is removed...this can be dangerous and cause damage to teh
    screw.

    Not sure i understand what you are calling the "Y axis guide"
    Operators station can be removed and the cables pulled back through the conduit...not too difficult, be sure to make a drawing of the wiring. Orange book has that info if you have it.
    Be careful as the control is fairly heavy....can surprise you.
    Think if it were me i would try to remove the rear casting that carries the control support arm, leave everything connected and just trail the cables and conduit to the rear while moving the machine.

    Removing the "Y" slide complete is a bit more complicated. Fair bit of wiring up there....shift motors drive motor etc....If this is a height issue, might suggest you consider turning the machine face down, or better yet on its back.
    Just mind that there are lots of wires in the box fixed to the back of the machine main vertical casting, below the servo motor for the "Y"....

    If you have specific questions , please ask....have had these machines down to bare castings and i might save you some work or pain...

    Cheers Ross
    Last edited by AlfaGTA; 10-08-2020 at 06:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadMahoDude View Post
    [email protected] is massive overkill for that tiny machine with 3hp spindle motor. I run a FP4NC with 10hp spindle off a 16A line, fuses never tripped so far. You can probably even run it from a 10A line, the labels on most machines are massively overrated.
    Thanks a lot for this info. If you can run your FP4NC off 3 phase 380V 16A, we should be able to do so with our "little" FP2NC too, I agree. I'll talk to my electrician.

    Greez
    chris

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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    All the servo motors on the FP-NC's have built in brakes to hold the axis moves stationary.
    They require power to release as the brake is a permanent magnet working against a electro-magnet.
    Some brakes are stronger than others...Some can be overpowered by the hand wheels, others not.
    If you want to move the axis using the hand wheels you must either power the brake (24vdc) or disconnect the servo from the screw.
    Note that the brake is polarity sensitive...won't release if the connected power is not oriented correctly....
    Normally when the machine is powered and the hand wheel is pulled out the brake is powered so the axis can be moved....

    The clicking you hear and feel when turning the hand wheel is the overload clutch. These machines have an overload clutch that slips or rather jumps to protect the axis and the ball screw if there is a collision or overload.
    Do not continue trying to move the axis and make the clutch slip...too much of this and the ramps of the clutch can become worn and its holding power reduced.
    I turned the wheel maybe some 180°. As it did not move, I stopped. If the Y sled stays on, it has to be moved to the front or the machine will not pass the hatch. I'll try the "powered" way as you suggest, so stay tuned...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    If power is not an option, then suggest you remove the "Y" axis servo and its drive belt. That will allow the nut on the screw to rotate and the axis will move. Note the screw does not rotate, rather the nut.
    There are no mechanical locks on any of the slides other than the brake in each servo.

    Be cautioned not to remove the drive belt off the "Z" axis screw without first blocking the vertical slide to hold it from freewheeling down as soon as the belt is removed...this can be dangerous and cause damage to teh
    screw.
    Not sure i understand what you are calling the "Y axis guide"
    Operators station can be removed and the cables pulled back through the conduit...not too difficult, be sure to make a drawing of the wiring. Orange book has that info if you have it.
    Be careful as the control is fairly heavy....can surprise you.
    Think if it were me i would try to remove the rear casting that carries the control support arm, leave everything connected and just trail the cables and conduit to the rear while moving the machine.[/QUOTE]

    I do have the orange book. Lots of documentation :


    If anyone is interested ina particular doc, I can scan them and make them available.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Removing the "Y" slide complete is a bit more complicated. Fair bit of wiring up there....shift motors drive motor etc....If this is a height issue, might suggest you consider turning the machine face down, or better yet on its back.
    Just mind that there are lots of wires in the box fixed to the back of the machine main vertical casting, below the servo motor for the "Y"....
    This might and might not work. It complicates the lowering process considerably:

    1. Remove Y-Servo
    2. Remove Dialog 4 "PC"
    3. Remove cable conduits, attach them somehow to be "trailed along" (as suggested)
    4. Tilt the machine 90° to hang temporarily on its back. Any liquid spills to be expected?
    5. Wheel the machin in laying position over the hatch
    6. Attach chain lifts (we need two, one to be purchesed yet)
    7. Lift off workshop crane
    8. Open hatch
    9. Let down foot rest first, lowering has to put the machine in vertical position again, else it would not pass the hatch


    If I look at it, it seems like a workable plan to me :-) Thanks for the inspiration!


    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    If you have specific questions , please ask....have had these machines down to bare castings and i might save you some work or pain...

    Cheers Ross
    Ross, be assured:
    BIG THANKS already
    Lots of Q's coming on!

    Greez
    chris

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    Some caution:
    If you are going to tilt or angle the machine i suggest you should drain the lube oil from the "Y" slide where the spindle gear box is located.(note sight glass on operators side of the "Y" slide casting)
    Drain on your machine is located under the "Y" slide between the dovetail ways about midway down the casting from the rear. Will need to remove the cover bellows on the rear of the "Y" to get access

    Failure to do this might result in allowing the oil to enter the horizontal spindle assembly (there are no seals there) and dilute the grease within....should that happen then you will be in for re-packing that spindle.
    There is also oil in the base casting on the non operators side below the way lubricator that is the sump for the hydraulic system. That sump is pretty well sealed, would not worry about
    any leakage there. Some will happen, but easily cleaned up and won't damage anything. There is no drain for this sump, and in order to remove the oil within, the oil must be sucked out through the filler hole,or
    the entire top cover plate removed which will entail disassembly of some hydraulic piping. For my money i would leave it alone and deal with the relative small leakage that is likely here. The only vent to atmosphere here is through the filler cap. If concerned you could remove the cap and replace it with a solid tapered rubber stopper.

    Cheers Ross

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    Ross
    Today was a busy day - elsewhere unfortunately (friend in need called). Tomorrow afternoon, I will hopefully have a few hours.

    Just a quick question: "operators side": I interpret that as the a) the side wher the handwheels are and b) where the splash cabin would be. Correct?

    If, then how bad an idea would it be to tilt the machine on its back, so opposit from the spash cabin? This off course only after removing conduits and dialog 4 pc.

    Big thanks for your valuable input!

    Greez, off for a glass of good red and cheese, then

    chris

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    Don't see a problem turning the machine on its back....would still drain the oil from the spindle gearbox. ("Y" slide ) Guessing that you would likely
    wish to change that oil for fresh anyhow, so this is just the first step in that change.

    Yes the "operators side" is the side of the machine where the control is situated and the hand wheels are. I use that term because people get confused as to the direction the machine is viewed where "right" and "left"
    side can cause trouble...Also,here in the US most all mill operators stand facing the "X" slide .....So defining via the operators side makes discussions pretty universal.
    Cheers Ross

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    Hi all

    Ross: I am a friend of clear cut definitions, so I'll use "operators side" from now on. I will remove the oil of the Y-axis probably today.

    Progress:

    • removed the kind of plastic covers
      dsc_0202.jpg
      Above picture shows the view from operators side. The 4 white plastic wheel span the dust cover for the glass scale right adjacent to the Z-sled. I am told in a German forum, that this needs to be removed before the z-sled and x axis can be removed. I am a bit reluctant to do this. But on the other hand, there is oil and chips on the belt.I figure it would be a good idea to clean this. Also: Am I wrong with the idea that there should be none of oil and chips here?
    • removed the dialog 4 "PC"
      The picture below shows the (in)famous battery to keep the parameter memory alive. I think I need to change that. Gonna check the voltage today.
      dsc_0220.jpg
    • removed the L table


    According to the manual, the machine weighs ~1'200 kg minus the L-table, which is around 150 kg, we should be down to 1'050 kg. That is just a bit above of what our workshop crane (beside: a tool I would not want to miss, so handy!) and our hand hoists can handle. I want to play it safe, so further stripping is required.

    When opening the dialog 4 "PC", i noticed that the control card for the 4th axis is missing. So we are in for either an upgrade or a new controller. I tend to the second, fully aware that this is probably not easy, as our other cnc stuff is running LinuxCNC. I'll open up a connector and count the wires. Maybe a LinuxCNC based controller could be attached to these and avoiding a hard retrofit.

    greez
    chris

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    Hi all


    A quick update:

    I was able to remove the upper part of the y-sled.

    Attachment 302069
    Attachment 302070

    After removing the hex bolt, I could slide the upper part half way out of the fish tail guide in negative y direction. Then I attached it to our workshop crane and sled it out completely.

    I made a mockup of wooden slats of the hatch. It prooved, I need to remove the y motor and the complete x sled.

    Good side of the whole disassembling: I learn to know our FP2NC inside out :-)

    Greez
    chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by seuchato View Post
    Hi all

    When opening the dialog 4 "PC", i noticed that the control card for the 4th axis is missing. So we are in for either an upgrade or a new controller. I tend to the second, fully aware that this is probably not easy, as our other cnc stuff is running LinuxCNC. I'll open up a connector and count the wires. Maybe a LinuxCNC based controller could be attached to these and avoiding a hard retrofit.

    greez
    chris
    Only need the 4th axis card if you have a real fourth axis...Photos shos above show a standard three axis machine with a rigid table....Don't see a need for that fourth axis card in what i see.....
    That control is old design (although pretty good for the day) No chance that any modern control hardware will integrate with what is there...If going new linux then you should figure on throwing everything out...
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by seuchato View Post
    HI was able to remove the upper part of the y-sled.
    Photos are missing. I suggest you:
    (1) go to your profile page (click your name, top of page)
    (2) create a new photo album
    (3) upload photos to that album
    (4) for each photo that you want to include in a posting, cut-and-paste the "bulletin board" link into your posting. You can find this just below the photo, in the album.

    The process seems tedious, but if you first upload all the photos to an album, then compose your post in one browser window, with a second browser window open with the album, it's quick.

    Whereabout are you in Germany? I'm near Hannover.

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    ballen

    Thanks for the tip. Here are the two fotos missing.
    dsc_0254.jpg
    dsc_0255.jpg

    I life in the South.

    Greez
    chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Only need the 4th axis card if you have a real fourth axis...Photos shos above show a standard three axis machine with a rigid table....Don't see a need for that fourth axis card in what i see.....
    That control is old design (although pretty good for the day) No chance that any modern control hardware will integrate with what is there...If going new linux then you should figure on throwing everything out...
    Cheers Ross
    Ross

    All true for now. We might get an nc table though. It is off an decommissioned FP2NC that has a defective controller. Maybe (press thumbs) the controller is a Dialog 4 and with extreme luck card to drive it available.

    greez chris

    PS: I definitely have to remove the X axis, else it will not pass the door to the workshop. Walls there are Reinforced concrete and the owner will not allow me to cut 100 mm out.


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