My deckel seems to be eating it's leadscrew nut - Page 2
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I've adjusted it so the handwheel it's still turnable at the edges. I used to use an indicator and try and lift the table and see how much it deflected to get an idea, when I had less than a hundreth near the end of travel I thought that was good enough.

    But I have to say, a lot of the force in turning the wheel comes from the setup itself. I removed the nut and turned the handwheel and screw and expected it to turn without resistance, but it felt not a lot lighter than when when in actual use.
    You still didn't say which Deckel that is but in any case 0.01mm is in the ball park. More or less. Service manual says 0.005mm.
    You'll have to look at the screw, bearings etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    It's a manual FP2. What's the better material, over say bronze that these are used from? I was reading last night about half nut repair and reading of people using moglice to cast nuts and repair worn ones.
    Thank you ! My most sincere apologies, I seem to have missed some posts, Gawd knows how...

    The best material would be some form ( there are many ) of self lubricated graphite-bronze. Do not waste time with Moglice and other such abject nonsense. They MIGHT be useful if the nut is 15Kg as bronze has become pricey of late. Just make a new nut if need be. I bet there isn't one and once everything has been cleaned, inspected and reassembled right all is going to be fine. On MAHO's it is common to get a slight tear of the crest of the threads on one of the nuts which after re-assembly completely locks the axis. That is why I suggested you look carefully INSIDE the nut with a ( magnifying ) dental mirror and check for distortion. Then, deburr it . Just in case you think of it, keep sandpaper well away from the screw or nut. Long term disaster...
    If you need make a new nut I suggest starting a thread. The new nut will come out perfectly, as good as factory, with the right tools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    "Meanwhile' get yourself a can of Wurth HHS-K or HHS-2000 "Hinge Lube".

    - clean the ways with solvent spray until the black "stuff" ceases to appear.

    Those are metal particulates, product of what an ex BAE Engineer who had done his Doctoral theses on it called "fretting corrosion". We chikn's without a PhD just call that wear and friction!

    - spray the Wurth in. The light vehicle that carries the magic evaporates and leaves a molecular film so slippery you'd think Moly was sand by comparison.

    And it is durable. From hinges to motorcar suspension joints that have to operate in nasty road-splash.

    HHS-K hinge lubricant aerosol can 500 mL | Specialty Lubricants | Lubricants | Chemical Product | Wurth USA

    NOW your choice of conventional way-lube has a sort of fall-back, under it and reinforcing it.

    Downside is that it works SO very well I just haven't had to BOTHER restoring the way lube systems built-in to my 10EE's.

    Wurth is all they get!

    OTOH? No tacifiers. Swarf doesn't stick to it! The ways look "bare". But are not.

    We use both. One is a GREASE and the other a VERY tacky oil. Are you sure you didn't get things mixed up somewhere ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    I guess you won't escape removing the operator's side X axis cover... You might have squeezed something there (or just, overdone it with the lock nuts). Of course, this is a different thing to your initial nut wear issue...

    BR,
    Thanos
    The resistance I felt was due to the mechanism in the vertical table that is engaged via the slot in the lead screw. Everything seems to be OK there, it's a very smooth feel, doesn't feel wrong. I deburred the screw and put all the cleaned parts back, before flushing out the vertical table thoroughly and wiping it clean to boot. The feeling is a bit better than before now. I think it's just how this table is. Will try the wurth later, the HHS 2000 spray is available locally. See if that makes things slide any easier.

    I would also say I misremembered how much resistance there was without the nut engaged, there was a noticable difference I felt when the nut was re-engaged. I figure it was more noticable now because I was able to try both ways at once.

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    Leadscrew nuts if relatively good (not excessively worn) can have accelerated wear by the factors stated already in the posts above....
    Don't overlook the alignment of the nut to the end support bearings of the table....As the slides and gibs wear things tend to drop. The height of the nut will stay in its original position.
    This Induces a misalignment from the screw to the nut , being more severe as the table approaches the ends of travel.....This wedging effect tends to add greater pressure/wear to the nut accelerating wear and making the movement feel tight.

    Any work at scraping the ways/gibs ,or replacement of the the nut should be accompanied with careful checks of the alignment to the end plate support bearings on both ends of the slide(X) .....
    The "X" is most sensitive as it has the screw captured at both ends by bearings. The "Z" and "Y" not quite so much as there the support of the screw is only at a single end.....

    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross, I only have notced bearings on the operator side on my deckel, behind the hand wheel. On the other side there is only this stop that is attached with a taper pin through the shaft. But it doesn't seem to add anything to the alignement, just seems to be there to roughly capture it. I can't see anything in my parts drawings either.

    At any rate the nut when into it's compartment without issue when I reassembled so I think that's one measure of fit too, if it was misaligned that should've had some additional resistance.

    EDIT: I looked at the side cap for the door side and sure enough there is a 35mm place there for a bearing. That's interesting, that was never on my machine, I figured it was perhaps made for some accessory or something and promptly forgot about it. I guess I should get myself a bearing and put it in there.

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    Hi Ross,

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Any work at scraping the ways/gibs ,or replacement of the the nut should be accompanied with careful checks of the alignment to the end plate support bearings on both ends of the slide(X).
    When I first put my FP2 back together, the motion was tight at the bottom of Z, exactly because of this kind of of misalignment. I've also seen this in Y after repairing from a crash, and remember the care that was needed to get everything lined up.

    If X is scraped, how much would you think would have to be removed before this matters? I don't see how to adjust the end plate supports on my FP2, since they have locating pins. How would you go about that?

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Maybe at that time one needs a solution like turcite on the table ways to bring them back to original position. Either way it seems like a difficult and fiddly task. Then you will have to scrape for geometry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Hi Ross,



    When I first put my FP2 back together, the motion was tight at the bottom of Z, exactly because of this kind of of misalignment. I've also seen this in Y after repairing from a crash, and remember the care that was needed to get everything lined up.

    If X is scraped, how much would you think would have to be removed before this matters? I don't see how to adjust the end plate supports on my FP2, since they have locating pins. How would you go about that?

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Please, with all due respect, are you an "amateur machinist" ? Or a "professional" making a living out of using or repairing machine tools ? I am having a hard time working out various posters' competency level on this site. Again, absolutely no disrespect intended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    Maybe at that time one needs a solution like turcite on the table ways to bring them back to original position. Either way it seems like a difficult and fiddly task. Then you will have to scrape for geometry.
    No, one practically never needs such a "solution". One needs to have the machine repaired RIGHT by people with proper training, experience and tools. I notice on this forum how a lot of posters wonder aimlessly about things which are , when done PROFESSIONALLY, absolute nothings. Just normal, nothing special, day to day work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbital77 View Post
    We use both. One is a GREASE and the other a VERY tacky oil. Are you sure you didn't get things mixed up somewhere ?
    As said, the whole POINT was to NOT mix them because it started out as a temporary fix whilst I assessed what I felt was cost-justified next. Metrology has no love for Vactra.

    As to "what is a grease" - it is "most often" an alkaline metal ash saponifying a fat or oil and often acting as "mothership" for some OTHER oil or "non-oil" such as moly, graphite, teflon-family as well.

    Either way, it is an oil doing the lubricating, then cycling back to the carrier. A 9" (nominal) Hendy Tool & Gage super-preciaion lathe oddly - to a Monarch mavin- used GREASED spindle bearings rather than a light "circulating" oil.

    Both work.

    The "EP grease" in Wurth's product is called a grease - by "some" but AFAIK is an unrelated critter to a tribologist.

    My guess a synthetically altered and specific sole-component isomeric linking of an ester. Pure, IOW, not saponified.

    Wurth are a tad cagey about that in the data sheets! Because they have a winner!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbital77 View Post
    No, one practically never needs such a "solution". One needs to have the machine repaired RIGHT by people with proper training, experience and tools. I notice on this forum how a lot of posters wonder aimlessly about things which are , when done PROFESSIONALLY, absolute nothings. Just normal, nothing special, day to day work.
    I'm a hobbyist and I wonder how it's done, it was my idea of how it could be done. My reasoning, a lot of the time professional machinists on this forum have suggested doing just that to these machines, in order to rebuild them, so my idea was why not also use that to bring the nut into line.

    Since this idea of mine incorrect. Will you explain to me how it's done properly so we can all be educated?

    Personallty I think you should be a little less condescending, this part of practical machinist has always been much more friendly and civilized than the rest of the forums, I hope we all work to keep the posting to "deckel standards" on this subform. Maybe you don't intend it, but I felt I should say something. I don't mean anything negative either. I really just want to learn the proper procedures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I'm a hobbyist and I wonder how it's done, it was my idea of how it could be done. My reasoning, a lot of the time professional machinists on this forum have suggested doing just that to these machines, in order to rebuild them, so my idea was why not also use that to bring the nut into line.

    Since this idea of mine incorrect. Will you explain to me how it's done properly so we can all be educated?

    Personallty I think you should be a little less condescending, this part of practical machinist has always been much more friendly and civilized than the rest of the forums, I hope we all work to keep the posting to "deckel standards" on this subform. Maybe you don't intend it, but I felt I should say something. I don't mean anything negative either. I really just want to learn the proper procedures.
    Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it. On the "Reconditioning" sub-forum I picked up flack from more than one poster for assisting a new member who was an amateur looking for some advice. I was told that this forum is only for "professionals" i.e. people who make a living using the machines. I don't like that but then this is not my forum, I am a guest here and have to obey by the rules of the Owners. Here is the thread in question :

    HBM 210 mini lathe and brushless motor

    Notice post #7 .

    Please accept my apologies if I seemed condescending - that was NOT my intention and I regret if I came across like that. Personally, I think the forum should be opened to anybody and everybody whatever the machine but again, I do not make the rules and I DO have some understanding re. how difficult might become to moderate it. As to the advice from "professional machinists" ( or rebuilders...) on this forum, it's always good to double check things. It's one thing to have actually worked for machine tool manufacturers or rebuilding plants and another to have learned "on the job", somewhere, somehow and from who knows whom. One does read a frightening amount of BS on machine tool repair, here.

    You have a wonderful day !

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I'm a hobbyist and I wonder how it's done, it was my idea of how it could be done. My reasoning, a lot of the time professional machinists on this forum have suggested doing just that to these machines, in order to rebuild them, so my idea was why not also use that to bring the nut into line.

    Since this idea of mine incorrect. Will you explain to me how it's done properly so we can all be educated?

    Personallty I think you should be a little less condescending, this part of practical machinist has always been much more friendly and civilized than the rest of the forums, I hope we all work to keep the posting to "deckel standards" on this subform. Maybe you don't intend it, but I felt I should say something. I don't mean anything negative either. I really just want to learn the proper procedures.
    Well "personallty" I'm amazed that a specialized milling machine built by and for camera parts makers ever became as general-purpose-popular as it did!

    As to orbital? He has a standing invite to have an email chat offline because.. with a lifetime of rebuilding, I'm curious as to whether where HE worked they scraped the way an Old Schwabian taught ME..(fast, minimalist, and paraphernalia LEAN.) ... or the way some OTHER German taught Richard King's Dad (infrastucture HEAVY... and slower).

    Could was he is "in between?"

    In most things, there are several successful ways to reach a goal. Not an infinite number, but not "the one, true, religion", either.

    Whilst there ARE a virtually infinite numbers of ways one can fail.

    T'was ever thus...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    As said, the whole POINT was to NOT mix them because it started out as a temporary fix whilst I assessed what I felt was cost-justified next. Metrology has no love for Vactra.

    As to "what is a grease" - it is "most often" an alkaline metal ash saponifying a fat or oil and often acting as "mothership" for some OTHER oil or "non-oil" such as moly, graphite, teflon-family as well.

    Either way, it is an oil doing the lubricating, then cycling back to the carrier. A 9" (nominal) Hendy Tool & Gage super-preciaion lathe oddly - to a Monarch mavin- used GREASED spindle bearings rather than a light "circulating" oil.

    Both work.

    The "EP grease" in Wurth's product is called a grease - by "some" but AFAIK is an unrelated critter to a tribologist.

    My guess a synthetically altered and specific sole-component isomeric linking of an ester. Pure, IOW, not saponified.

    Wurth are a tad cagey about that in the data sheets! Because they have a winner!

    Well, if it works for you that's great. Keep doing it.

    I suppose you keep your machines very clean and use them seldom. That means a tacky oil is not needed. I seldom start one of my two lathes and that means I can afford to oil every time and even do weird stuff like wiping with a paper towel each time I retract... anything. Still like new after 25- 26 years. And here's the schocking bit : I use 2 stroke racing oil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbital77 View Post
    Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it. On the "Reconditioning" sub-forum I picked up flack from more than one poster for assisting a new member who was an amateur looking for some advice. I was told that this forum is only for "professionals" i.e. people who make a living using the machines. I don't like that but then this is not my forum, I am a guest here and have to obey by the rules of the Owners. Here is the thread in question :

    HBM 210 mini lathe and brushless motor

    Notice post #7 .

    Please accept my apologies if I seemed condescending - that was NOT my intention and I regret if I came across like that. Personally, I think the forum should be opened to anybody and everybody whatever the machine but again, I do not make the rules and I DO have some understanding re. how difficult might become to moderate it. As to the advice from "professional machinists" ( or rebuilders...) on this forum, it's always good to double check things. It's one thing to have actually worked for machine tool manufacturers or rebuilding plants and another to have learned "on the job", somewhere, somehow and from who knows whom. One does read a frightening amount of BS on machine tool repair, here.

    You have a wonderful day !
    No worries, but as to the post in question and rule, it's not really to me about hobbyists as I read it, but hobby machinery. To my understanding, there's always been a gray area for hobbyists with professional level machinery and loads of hobbyists on this forum skate by on that. If it was really verboten, then they ought to ban anyone who did not own his shop, or work in one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    1. Well "personallty" I'm amazed that a specialized milling machine built by and for camera parts makers ever became as general-purpose-popular as it did!

    2. As to orbital? He has a standing invite to have an email chat offline because.. with a lifetime of rebuilding, I'm curious as to whether where HE worked they scraped the way an Old Schwabian taught ME..(fast, minimalist, and paraphernalia LEAN.) ... or the way some OTHER German taught Richard King's Dad (infrastucture HEAVY... and slower).

    3. Could was he is "in between?"

    In most things, there are several successful ways to reach a goal. Not an infinite number, but not "the one, true, religion", either.

    Whilst there ARE a virtually infinite numbers of ways one can fail.

    T'was ever thus...
    1. It was never "specialized" while it might've been built for making camera parts, by Zeiss in all probability. I don't find anything very out of the ordinary. It was a decent quality machine, it was HEAVILY advertised and the manufacturer was ( for a while..) very reliable. Lots of people built something similar - I saw quite a few clones. Even a Chinese one, I think. I don't like any Deckel milling machine and I very much prefer say a Cincinnati Powermatic clone with a Huron head on it. The FP3l could've been a MUCH nicer proposal but it was ( again ) a missed opportunity. The FP3l could've beeb the ultimate mill with some attention.... Both TOS and some Russian factory built a couple of properly engineered clones but they are incredibly rare and the TOS one wasn't cheap at some $50k in 1999, last time I saw one.

    2. I really don't mind chatting to you but I have to worn you ( and you did actually notice.. ) I am very cagey when it comes to "personal". But, if you want to talk iron, I'm game.

    Scraping :

    I agree, there is more than one way to skin that cat. And I don't think anybody is privy to the ultimate truth. My training was ordinary at the beginning. Much later I was shown the method used at Zeiss. On this very forum there are two people who worked ( scraped... ) for SIP and another who worked for Hauser, I think. But they got scared and are not present much of late. Richard King gives some advice here and makes a lot of other noises and this is probably good enough. I do not understand his scraping philosophy and I disagree firmly with some of the rebuilding advice he's giving. But in the end it's not my forum, my machines or my problem. I took the trouble to read almost all the Machine rebuilding sub-forum and I do not think one can start scraping based on what's there. Not that one can't try...
    For starters, the issue of sharpening the scraper is not quite sorted out. I looked at some pictures and no, I would not allow somebody scraping like that next to a half decent machine tool. BUT !!! That does not mean a "flat" surface hasn't been obtained ! Only scraping is WAY more than that. But that's not what Moore did to their Jig borers or SIP to theirs - let's be serious... The most cursory inspection in unworn areas will show a scraping pattern looking nothing like what I constantly see here.
    I notice there WAS a smart bloke on PM - one Andy ( Addy ?) Forrest ? He seemed to have been ( working ) in all the right places and had the right intellect, too. I highly enjoyed his posts. I hope he's well.

    You have a GREAT weekend !

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    No worries, but as to the post in question and rule, it's not really to me about hobbyists as I read it, but hobby machinery. To my understanding, there's always been a gray area for hobbyists with professional level machinery and loads of hobbyists on this forum skate by on that. If it was really verboten, then they ought to ban anyone who did not own his shop, or work in one.
    Thank you for your understanding. Here's the content of that post :

    <<<Don`t shoot the messenger
    This is a forum for proffessionals
    Not hobbiest
    There has to be a line drawn
    If he wants help, there are plenty places glad to help him out

    Peter>>>

    I really do not understand for what reason Peter The Professional from The Country where Machine Tools were Born aka Holland got so worked up. I found it downright rude towards the OP. These are not easy times, people might be looking for a bit of relief and we should be nicer. There isn't much activity on that sub forum either.... Like practically none. Peter from... Holland could simply ignore the thread, it's not like he's contributing anything there. He's a reader. You'll have then to permit me to start doing things the right way...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Hi Ross,




    I don't see how to adjust the end plate supports on my FP2, since they have locating pins. How would you go about that?

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    There are a number of approaches to this....The quick and often "professional" method is to "float the support bearing.
    Remove the end plate and remove the alignment taper pins.
    Install everything ,screw and nut, support bearing with end thrust more or less adjusted,gibs fitted and adjusted.....

    Move the slide to bring the end support as close to the nut as possible, loosen the bolts holding the cover in place, then tighten.
    Often the dowels are left out . Me, i ream the holes to clean up and fit larger taper pins to secure the location.

    If you are doing the rebuild and the vertical slide is off the machine then you can use indicators and height gauges off a surface plate on the assembly to get the end plates aligned....
    More work , takes longer but better result if you are careful.

    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbital77 View Post
    ...and you did actually notice.. ) I am very cagey when it comes to "personal". But, if you want to talk iron, I'm game.

    Scraping :

    I agree, there is more than one way to skin that cat.
    And there's my Purple Button, right there.

    It NEEDs to be "compartmentalized". DIRECTED more appropriately.

    You mention SIP, Moore, et al? I'd surely HOPE the technique is not the same!

    First-off, they are about as precisely machined as can possible BE when they reach the hands of the factory final fitter.

    Next, they will NOT be allowed, in-use, to get to where they have 30 thou of uneven wear. More likely not even THREE thou. So the next round of corrections for wear - is also very fine work.

    Not step-scraping half to a whole millimeter of nasty out of it.

    OTHER "classes of" machine tools get that sort of wear, and they SHOULD get a different approach to doing what is actually economically justifiable.

    At the other end, we have "popuar name" featherweight school trainer, hobby machine-tools getting ENTIRELY unjustifiable levels of attention using the most labour-intensive possible methods.

    When the SANER way might be to put HALF the hours into cutting grass and use the cash to buy a BETTER cheap, hobby machine any brand, famous or not. And have it the same month. Not three years and two training courses later.

    The "middle ground" what I would like to see more of is "Practical" rebuilding.

    Where 20 percent of the effort, put into the portion with the greatest GAIN in reducing the most detrimental of negatives even if ONLY the worst, each go...... improves usability value by 80 percent of what best-efforts, time-cost no-object MIGHT bring. IF ever it even got DONE at all .. three years and two training courses later..

    And after each BRIEFER time at such a sub-project, the machine goes back into actual USE and "soon" -- with gradually improving capability.

    Or at least no worse-off ... and better understood ... for greater confidence.

    "Practical" Pragmatism thing.

    Does EITHER extreme match what we have BEEN chasing?

    Not sure anyone here even WANTS to hear the answer to that.

    The machines involved are otherwise not "getting to the END".

    "Oh, but I learned how to scrape!"

    Yah well.

    Ever hear of a dog that chased a car and actually caught it?

    Now what does he do NEXT?

    And now that he's DONE it, is he even interested in doing it again?

    Or has HE "become the guy" who never, ever, wants to "take on another 'project' lathe/mill again!"

    Have we not "poisoned the well" when that happens?

    Turned more folks AGAINST attempting to improve, "too difficult." "Too much EFFORT to even start." Rather than encouraging them to do SOMETHING of value?

    Teach a guy to sky-dive without a freakin' parachute, you don't GET a lot of repeat bizness, do yah?

    IF.. he had input from more of the "pragmatic" in experience, he might hear:

    "For THAT problem, on THAT class of machine tool, all you really want to do is ......." ONLY!

    TAKE the advice. GRAB a realistic GAIN.

    Do it again some OTHER time. And smile all the while!

    Because more than just the one, old, wise, hand - with the scar-tissue of the very ages on HIS ass - shared.. and you got back more time in your life.

    And less scar-tissue on YOUR young(er) ass.

    Float the nut. Ream for taper pins?

    ...I don't even need to dilute French finger-paint with Windex and mash up the chunks?


    Gotta love it!



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