My deckel seems to be eating it's leadscrew nut - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    I don’t know from here what condition the FP 2 is in but wonder if the screw is getting oil properly or not?
    If someone along the way had the screw out and forgot to put the lube ring back in it maybe as simple as that causing the wear? The ring I’m referring to is the short piece of pipe that goes on the screw before the nut.

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  3. #42
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    1. You mention SIP, Moore, et al? I'd surely HOPE the technique is not the same!

    No, it's not. It's not the same even between SIP machines and / or years. Sometimes way were actually lapped and the scraping pattern is just for beauty. The Moore scraping pattern is very different and I suppose they had their logic behind it. Must've been good - they made some very fine machines. Not Zeiss-fine but fine enough....

    2. First-off, they are about as precisely machined as can possible BE when they reach the hands of the factory final fitter.

    I can't say. They were machined very precisely but I would stop before the "as can possible BE". If you scrape to very high precision you do not want the pattern to "haunt" because you scrape a featureless surface which is overly flat to begin with.

    3. Next, they will NOT be allowed, in-use, to get to where they have 30 thou of uneven wear. More likely not even THREE thou. So the next round of corrections for wear - is also very fine work.


    About a tenth. More on the cross axis which is not that relevant.

    4. Not step-scraping half to a whole millimeter of nasty out of it.

    I heard of step dancing... I see there is something "step scraping". One learns........

    5. OTHER "classes of" machine tools get that sort of wear, and they SHOULD get a different approach to doing what is actually economically justifiable

    Very true. In general a machine should see it's cost returned way before a need to overhaul it. Intelligent people then discard it and buy another. Of course, some machines are irreplaceable and one overhauls them at a cost usually exceeding good common sense or cheap and shoddy.... And yes, you do get the now and then exception, I know....

    6. At the other end, we have "popuar name" featherweight school trainer, hobby machine-tools getting ENTIRELY unjustifiable levels of attention using the most labour-intensive possible methods.
    When the SANER way might be to put HALF the hours into cutting grass and use the cash to buy a BETTER cheap, hobby machine any brand, famous or not. And have it the same month. Not three years and two training courses later.

    What you want from me ??? I am not going to risk being lynched here for saying that a machine tool must be in either mint condition or new. I'm smarter than that.

    I read the entire rebuilding sub-forum and must say, it is rather disappointing. But that's not the main problem. The main problem is that the "discussion" gave some ( very nice ) people the warm feeling that one can overhaul a Monarch or a even a B/port with a scraper and something called a "straight-edge" ( most often neither of the two... ). But then one should make up one's mind as to what one wants to do : "refurbish" decrepit stuff or, flip burgers, make some extra income, buy decent and make some parts for some novel and meaningful project.

    7. The "middle ground" what I would like to see more of is "Practical" rebuilding.
    Where 20 percent of the effort, put into the portion with the greatest GAIN in reducing the most detrimental of negatives even if ONLY the worst, each go...... improves usability value by 80 percent of what best-efforts, time-cost no-object MIGHT bring. IF ever it even got DONE at all .. three years and two training courses later..
    And after each BRIEFER time at such a sub-project, the machine goes back into actual USE and "soon" -- with gradually improving capability.
    Or at least no worse-off ... and better understood ... for greater confidence.
    "Practical" Pragmatism thing.

    Nah...will never happen. Basically, you mean fitting new bearings, grinding spindles true and making new, decently fitting gibs. News for ya : that's not exciting enough for the usual audience.

    8. Does EITHER extreme match what we have BEEN chasing?
    Not sure anyone here even WANTS to hear the answer to that.
    The machines involved are otherwise not "getting to the END".
    "Oh, but I learned how to scrape!"
    Yah well.
    Ever hear of a dog that chased a car and actually caught it?
    Now what does he do NEXT?
    And now that he's DONE it, is he even interested in doing it again?
    Or has HE "become the guy" who never, ever, wants to "take on another 'project' lathe/mill again!"
    Have we not "poisoned the well" when that happens?
    Turned more folks AGAINST attempting to improve, "too difficult." "Too much EFFORT to even start." Rather than encouraging them to do SOMETHING of value?

    Agree. Scraping as such is not a big deal. It's basically nothing. Less than nothing. It was not considered "qualified work" in some jurisdictions. It becomes sort of "black magic" very far down the road. For example, when re-squaring the uprights on a jig borer. So many things go into that, into splitting a tenth in four a meter from the base that one needs to actually have some REAL practical experience and some REAL know-how. If all you did in "training" was to scrape gaskets off pump housing there is no chance to do the real super-precision work. Because you don't understand it. And if you have the opportunity, do remove the uprights of an old SIP jig borer. Draw through your nostrils that 1930 oil/grease/metal smell and then look at the 1" wide mirror like scraper marks. There is just a couple of them. The old codger who did that REALLY knew his stuff. Of course, you did realize that was square in two directions...

    9.Teach a guy to sky-dive without a freakin' parachute, you don't GET a lot of repeat bizness, do yah?
    IF.. he had input from more of the "pragmatic" in experience, he might hear:
    "For THAT problem, on THAT class of machine tool, all you really want to do is ......." ONLY!
    TAKE the advice. GRAB a realistic GAIN.
    Do it again some OTHER time. And smile all the while!
    Because more than just the one, old, wise, hand - with the scar-tissue of the very ages on HIS ass - shared.. and you got back more time in your life.
    And less scar-tissue on YOUR young(er) ass.
    Float the nut. Ream for taper pins?
    ...I don't even need to dilute French finger-paint with Windex and mash up the chunks?
    Gotta love it!

    True. Machine tools need a minimum of "right". Spindle must be 100%. One axis AT LEAST must be straight. A lot of other stuff can be fudged cheaper than "refurbishing". It's bloody amusing that I could find no "lecture" on how to PROPERLY remove and refit bearings on a lathe spindle. I mean, in the end all a lathe has to do is turn ROUND. Who cares if it's out 2 thou at 12" from the chuck. When was last you had to fit such a wide bearing and decided not to start the cylindrical grinder that day...

  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbital77 View Post
    [B][I] When was last you had to fit such a wide bearing and decided not to start the cylindrical grinder that day...
    LOL! Wouldn't THAN have been nicer than a 22" Black Diamond long-angle lathe bastard file .. and a run of steel bar back of abrasive cloth? The from-bar-stock armature shaft of a 100 HP DC motor. Where the armature is pressed on. Long bastid as fits go. And a picky f**ker about diameter and such.

    Well "since you mention "grinder"?

    .. to save a 100 HP DC Joy 1CM end-bell bearing fit - same motor - a skosh over ONE inch, long-axis.

    I'm manhandling a friggin TP grinder up out of years of filth, may not have been even mounted in ten year, George, my foreman, says:

    "WTF do you need THAT old fossil for?" "Just use the Carbolloy!"

    "Coz Mike got careless and laid a quarter inch of Manganese hardface stick right TF in the middle of the powdered Iron for the bearing fit," ."Again."

    "Oh."

    ..and off he went.

    Bearing soon fit perfectly.

    Time before, I had worm-gear hose-clamped an air die grinder to the four-way.

    That one fit too.

    But it had bustid my friggin' CHOPS to make it hit diameter off the back of cheap-ass mounted spear-points that didn't last!!

    Yah dooze what yah has to dooze.. if you wanted to EAT reg'lar-like.. back when "cheap Chinese labour" was still located in the mountains of West Virginia and the Carolinas!

    United Steel Workers of America Union Scale, too. Don't think I'd even want to know what the NON-Union shops paid back then.

    IF .. one could get on.. USWA job. Same Union. Same job classification. Different Local, Company, and contract? Just 75 road miles to Pittsburgh?

    DOUBLE the hourly. But it was not that simple.

    You'd have to know dirty Union politics and organized crime?



    We did NOT have to. Not enough of us to make it worth their bother.
    They went and bled the United Mine Workers white instead.

    Seemed the better deal at the time, after all.

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    Hi Ross,

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Often the dowels are left out . Me, i ream the holes to clean up and fit larger taper pins to secure the location.
    That's the bit that wasn't clear to me. As I recall, these alignment pins are not taper pins, just ground cylindrical dowel pins. Is there any "trick" to relocate those pins to the new correct location?

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Bruce:
    I might be confusing the pins on the manual (FP2) with the locating pins on the FP-NC's....Have done the NC's and they definitely are taper pins.

    Just looked in a parts book for an FP2......Locating part for the end covers on the "X" slide is listed as "5x30 DIN1" which i believe is a taper pin.....
    If you remove the rubber plugs on the outside of the end covers it will expose through holes to the taper pins.....

    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Hi Ross,



    That's the bit that wasn't clear to me. As I recall, these alignment pins are not taper pins, just ground cylindrical dowel pins. Is there any "trick" to relocate those pins to the new correct location?

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Just one.

    To remember we can do right-nice TiG and do it all over again from scratch, five or ten years from now if need be.

    My run, that was not NEARLY as neatly done and the arn was at-risk.

    Low Hydrogen Powdered Iron. Up to 400 A worth of ancient broad round shoulders Linde DC stick. 'bout as good as it got for what it was. But it still WAS only what it was.

    Or go pound sand. Michigan green. For-real. Not as a figure of speech.

    It's a machine tool. They live longer than dogs or humans.

    That still ain't "forever". You paid for it? Get money out of it. Not into it.

    Use it up. They won't LET you have it in your coffin. Pall-bearer thing.

    And they don't CREMATE worth a dam.

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    Bruce:
    Just for reference here is the technique i used to align the "Z" axis screw on my home FP3NC.
    Base of the screw carries the thrust bearing and nut which rotates leaving the screw stationary.
    Base is a flat flange that bolts to a machined face on the machine base. Located via taper pins

    Vertical slide is brought down as close to the nut as possible.Slide is supported from above via crane so no load on the screw...Two indicators are placed against the flange at right angles,
    and set to zero....





    The retaining bolts (2) are carefully tightened being careful to maintain position of the flange (indicator reading)



    Slide was lifted off screw and the taper pin holes reamed to clean up.....


    New larger pins fitted...Note these pins are blind so they are threaded for removal...(DIN 7978)

    Cheers Ross

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    I think Bruce is referring to these, there are two pins for each cover and they are cylindrical as far as I can tell:



    Here's a close up of my X axis lead screw from when I first got the machine

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    I'll take your word for that,(really can't tell from a photo) but the Deckel documentation says different....



    Also note that the drawing clearly shows a bearing at the end of the lead screw (non hand wheel end)

    Cheers Ross

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    That missing bearing is probab ly the cause of the eating of the bronze nut
    With the rapids I see the spindle flopping around

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbital77 View Post
    Thank you for your understanding. Here's the content of that post :

    <<<Don`t shoot the messenger
    This is a forum for proffessionals
    Not hobbiest
    There has to be a line drawn
    If he wants help, there are plenty places glad to help him out

    Peter>>>

    I really do not understand for what reason Peter The Professional from The Country where Machine Tools were Born aka Holland got so worked up. I found it downright rude towards the OP. These are not easy times, people might be looking for a bit of relief and we should be nicer. There isn't much activity on that sub forum either.... Like practically none. Peter from... Holland could simply ignore the thread, it's not like he's contributing anything there. He's a reader. You'll have then to permit me to start doing things the right way...
    Just noticed this post
    I suppose you did not read the whole post As later in that post I corrected myself and stated it was for professional machinery only
    The triggerpoint for me was that HBM the machinebrand at hand is probably the worst quality machinebrand available
    I repair machines By repairing I mean making them workable again
    And that I have done on more Deckels as anyone else on the forum probably
    I have to be humble about my skills as I live in that part of the world where the realy high accurate maching is done Where Zeiss has his biggest and most challiging customer A lott of shops nearby work for ASML and I know plenty of them My skills in accurracy are peunuts compared to these shops As a example A guy I visit makes his own collets because the ones he can buy are not accurate enough Now I heard he is selling them to Hauser Also makes his own driven tools for the same reason

    And I do not post on that part of the forum because me and the King do not get along so well

    Peter

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  17. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbital77 View Post
    If you need make a new nut I suggest starting a thread. The new nut will come out perfectly, as good as factory, with the right tools.
    That is the nice thing about Deckel Parts are still available at a affordable price
    BTW a good tool to make your own nut is a tap bought from Aliexpress or Alibaba Price is about 30 euro
    I was sceptic at first but bought one anyhow for a small long nut It worked perfectly with bronze I bought one for the nuts on a Deckel and made some
    In fact endplay was less as on a OEM one I know this does not say anything about geometry But probably better as would be if you make your own single point threading with the right tools but not the right skills

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    I suppose you did not read the whole post As later in that post I corrected myself and stated it was for professional machinery only
    Phew so I guess my Deckel FP2 buys me admission here .
    For the record I'm unabashedly a hobbyist working down from 10 left thumbs, and I've never had anything bu useful advice and great patience in this forum. It's been a little salty at times, but always helpful and patient.

    PS: Thanks, y'all!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Just noticed this post
    I suppose you did not read the whole post As later in that post I corrected myself and stated it was for professional machinery only
    The triggerpoint for me was that HBM the machinebrand at hand is probably the worst quality machinebrand available
    I repair machines By repairing I mean making them workable again
    And that I have done on more Deckels as anyone else on the forum probably
    I have to be humble about my skills as I live in that part of the world where the realy high accurate maching is done Where Zeiss has his biggest and most challiging customer A lott of shops nearby work for ASML and I know plenty of them My skills in accurracy are peunuts compared to these shops As a example A guy I visit makes his own collets because the ones he can buy are not accurate enough Now I heard he is selling them to Hauser Also makes his own driven tools for the same reason

    And I do not post on that part of the forum because me and the King do not get along so well

    Peter
    Glad you noticed.

    Whichever way you look at it, it was an unnecessary comment at that moment. Spain was hard hit by Covid, the entire world is not doing that great at the moment and I think a tiny bit of flexibility hurts nobody. Sometimes, it's good to just be kind. And if you do not post there I don't see how it would've impacted you. It really was uncalled for as PLENTY aimless amateurs are all over this forum at the moment. Richard King is abusing that sub forum all day, every day and for some years and nobody seems to notice. It's one of his sales channels.

    And by the way, the World is very small : it seems we might have some common acquaintances...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    That is the nice thing about Deckel Parts are still available at a affordable price
    BTW a good tool to make your own nut is a tap bought from Aliexpress or Alibaba Price is about 30 euro
    I was sceptic at first but bought one anyhow for a small long nut It worked perfectly with bronze I bought one for the nuts on a Deckel and made some
    In fact endplay was less as on a OEM one I know this does not say anything about geometry But probably better as would be if you make your own single point threading with the right tools but not the right skills

    Peter
    Did you make a nut for THAT Deckel shaft using a tap bought from Alibaba ??? For Euro30 ? That's excellent news. I make ACME nuts for some manual presses use a tap but it's a huge pain to turn and that's on a 12mm shaft.
    No, what I would have suggested is that the OP buys the right insert, the right anvil and the right holder. Then, the result will be as close to perfect as reasonably possible. I couldn't say on Deckels but on many MAHO's ( and probably newer Deckels ) they did not leave enough top and bottom clearance and there is a huge tendency to bind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    I'll take your word for that,(really can't tell from a photo) but the Deckel documentation says different....



    Also note that the drawing clearly shows a bearing at the end of the lead screw (non hand wheel end)

    Cheers Ross
    I suppose it's entirely possibly they are tapers, it's usually so slight I have problems detecting it. And yes I managed to find it too when I started looking for it. I bought a replacement 6003 bearing and fitted it.

    I was thinking what Peter said about that being the cause. I did not get rid of the eating effect at first, so I disassembled it again and deburred the whole screw using a translucent arkansas stone and the screw mounted in the lathe, then I followed the threads and also the outside. After that it has seemed to behave but I will have to keep checking, might be a lot better, but might still go on so only continued use might tell of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbital77 View Post
    Richard King is abusing that sub forum all day, every day and for some years and nobody seems to notice. It's one of his sales channels.
    Joke's on him then, I can't afford anything he's selling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbital77 View Post
    Glad you noticed.

    Whichever way you look at it, it was an unnecessary comment at that moment. Spain was hard hit by Covid, the entire world is not doing that great at the moment and I think a tiny bit of flexibility hurts nobody. Sometimes, it's good to just be kind. And if you do not post there I don't see how it would've impacted you. It really was uncalled for as PLENTY aimless amateurs are all over this forum at the moment. Richard King is abusing that sub forum all day, every day and for some years and nobody seems to notice. It's one of his sales channels.

    And by the way, the World is very small : it seems we might have some common acquaintances...

    I disagree with you
    The moderator on several occasions made it very clear this forum is not to discus the chinese hobbymachines On several occasions I have noticed that members made newcommers aware of that. I even seem to remember the moderator asked members to make newcommers aware of that rule
    So for once I did that in a friendly way (for me at least) As you are a rather new member perhaps you did not notice this policy yet
    Wheather my words are friendly or not is subject to interpretation English is not my native language and I never lived in a englisch speaking country Perhaps thats it

    I am curious to our commen acquaintances though
    Perhaps send me a PM??

    Peter

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    Bought one of those taps at least on your recommendation then Peter. Just in case of future needs. I would otherwise probably have attempted it with home ground HSS for threading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    Bought one of those taps at least on your recommendation then Peter. Just in case of future needs. I would otherwise probably have attempted it with home ground HSS for threading.
    Member TRboatworks made a new MULTISTART Bronze nut FOR his Hendey T&G, ON his Hendey T&G ...with VERY good results. And he is an artist in boaty-things, doesn't actually claim to be an experenced machinist.

    So it isn't as if one "cannot".

    It's just faster and lower-risk to use a tap.

    Among other advantages?

    No need to mess with trying to MEASURE a tiny, threaded bore, each pass while doing the actual work and not yet DONE so as to not over-shoot and ruin a chunk of material!

    "More taps, please. We're pragmatists!"



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