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My first horizontal setup

sigurasg

Aluminum
Joined
May 4, 2018
Hey y'all,

I bought this 9" straight edge casting a while back. The plan is to use it to straighten out the compound of my Chinesium lathe, which came to me bad as-new for my convenience :).

I guess I was being lazy with this setup and it felt a little precarious at times. The casting did tend to ring a little at the ends until I got under the scale.
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It would possibly have been more rigid to flip the table and to clamp the casting straight down to it. I'm not entirely sure, though, as it really needs to be held by the "handle" for this first operation, so that'd limit the rigidity of any setup.

It came out just fine, though, seems to be flat as a pancake from how it hinges on my surface plate. I'll need to scrape it in due course, so I guess I'll see just how flat it is when I start that process.

So here's a real n00b setup question:

I need to cut the 45 degree bevel on the front edge, but I realized that I don't own any V-blocks large enough. I also don't own a table that'll angle or such. It would have been handy to cut this with the head tilted to 45 degrees, but I don't have the Y travel for it.

I can of course rig up some fixturing by making something that'll hold the casting at 45 degrees, which is probably my best bet. Neither the angle of the face nor "parallelism" to the back face are critical here, this just needs to end up as an angled flat face.
I guess I could also buy some V-blocks, they're sure to come in handy over time.

What I do have, though, is the Deckel dividing head and the face plate. The face plate is plenty large to hold the casting. The dividing head will tilt and swivel, but it'll only tilt a few degrees toward and away from the table it's mounted to. It will however swivel 90 degrees in either direction.

I've not used the dividing head yet, so I don't have a feel for how rigid that kind of setup would be, though my guess would be "not very"? I'd have to space the work off the faceplate, and my sense is that it'd be a long way out from the neck of the dividing head by that time.

Also, if I mount it on the vertical table, I'd have to cut the bevel on the Y axis which doesn't have the travel - so that's out.

If I mount it on the horizontal table, I'd have to traverse some 13" or thereabouts in Z to cut the thing in one pass with that face mill. That doesn't feel like a good idea, though I couldn't rightly articulate why I feel that way. WDYT?

Am I overlooking "this one weird setup trick" that'd make this a total breeze?

Siggi

PXL_20201211_231324524.jpg
 
With wimpy cuts your set up may work, a horz mill needs the work clamped better than a vert mill...The thing that I think is wrong is you are too high off the table using the vice, I would find a block that just clears the work from the table and use 2 or 3 bar clamps to hold the casting down...You can have real big wrecks with a horz...Phil
 
Hi Siggi,

You need better clamping than that. I know, I'm speaking from my own experience. Here's what can go wrong:


Fortunately no harm was done to me or to the scale. But I needed to remove another mm of material to get rid of the places where the cutter dug in.

Bottom line: make some 45 degree V blocks or buy them.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
With wimpy cuts your set up may work, a horz mill needs the work clamped better than a vert mill...The thing that I think is wrong is you are too high off the table using the vice, I would find a block that just clears the work from the table and use 2 or 3 bar clamps to hold the casting down...You can have real big wrecks with a horz...Phil

1000% this. Going from a Bridgeport to even a little DeVlieg was a huge eye opener. Luckily my bar is still straight...

It's not so much that just changing the spindle orientation makes the clamping different, rather you are usually going to be using larger cutters, with a lot more torque at the tool. Instead of just snapping a 1/2" end mill, you launch parts and cutter shrapnel across the shop when you screw up, as shown in post 3, but it can get messier than that.

With big shell and face mills you need to pay much more attention to how you enter the cut also.

As far as the 45 goes, look into buying an indexable chamfer mill, you will probably use it a lot.
 
Hi Siggi,

You need better clamping than that. I know, I'm speaking from my own experience. Here's what can go wrong:


Fortunately no harm was done to me or to the scale. But I needed to remove another mm of material to get rid of the places where the cutter dug in.

Bottom line: make some 45 degree V blocks or buy them.

Cheers,
Bruce


That was scary Bruce....amazing you got in on camera! Nice catch also!!!
I wonder if things were worse had you clamped better (e.g. clamps as stops at the end of the scale). If the scale didn't move to absorb the forces, maybe climbing could have got out of hand.

Or was it just a clamping thing and it would have slid even with conventional milling?

BR,
Thanos
 
Hey y'all,

...

I can of course rig up some fixturing by making something that'll hold the casting at 45 degrees, which is probably my best bet. Neither the angle of the face nor "parallelism" to the back face are critical here, this just needs to end up as an angled flat face.
I guess I could also buy some V-blocks, they're sure to come in handy over time.

What I do have, though, is the Deckel dividing head and the face plate. The face plate is plenty large to hold the casting. The dividing head will tilt and swivel, but it'll only tilt a few degrees toward and away from the table it's mounted to. It will however swivel 90 degrees in either direction.

I've not used the dividing head yet, so I don't have a feel for how rigid that kind of setup would be, though my guess would be "not very"? I'd have to space the work off the faceplate, and my sense is that it'd be a long way out from the neck of the dividing head by that time.

Also, if I mount it on the vertical table, I'd have to cut the bevel on the Y axis which doesn't have the travel - so that's out.

If I mount it on the horizontal table, I'd have to traverse some 13" or thereabouts in Z to cut the thing in one pass with that face mill. That doesn't feel like a good idea, though I couldn't rightly articulate why I feel that way. WDYT?

Am I overlooking "this one weird setup trick" that'd make this a total breeze?

Siggi

View attachment 307698

Fun option 1:

- mild ends flat, and put it vertically on your table (spacer below of course). Clamp it safely and work along Z. Can make any angle you like. (light cuts)

Fun option 2:
- center drill one end. Mount your indexing head however you like (vertically or just on the table). Hold the SE between a chuck/faceplate and the overarm center of the head. Any angle you like... (lighter cuts here)

Sane option:
- make some V blocks (aluminium would work) using your vice and the head at 45 deg. Mount the blocks on your table and hold the SE securely. Make enough blocks to support it properly. Work horizontally or vertically.

BR,
Thanos
 
You need better clamping than that. I know, I'm speaking from my own experience. Here's what can go wrong:

Hey Bruce,

That looked pretty scary for a moment. Thanks for sharing. It's quite valuable for for n00bs like me to see what can go wrong. I really don't have a feel for the machine or the process yet - but I have decades to go, so that's fine.
Same job as I'm gearing up for too :).

Given what you (now) know, how would you clamp differently here? You were on V-blocks, straight on the table by the looks of it? I notice the clamps were bearing down on a pin on top of the straight edge - was the small surface area there a problem at all? Did you maybe just need to gronk down on the clamps some more?

Siggi
 
That looked pretty scary for a moment. Thanks for sharing. It's quite valuable for for n00bs like me to see what can go wrong.

Keep in mind that I'm a n00b also. The pros in this forum are Ross and a few others who have decades of hands-on experience.

How would you clamp differently here?

- A pair of V-blocks big enough to support the base
- Solid clamps directly above those
- Stop blocks both ends

You know what they say about painting, it's 99% preparation? Unless you can just clamp something in a vise and start cutting, that applies to milling as well, although it's less than 99%.
 
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With wimpy cuts your set up may work, a horz mill needs the work clamped better than a vert mill...The thing that I think is wrong is you are too high off the table using the vice, I would find a block that just clears the work from the table and use 2 or 3 bar clamps to hold the casting down...You can have real big wrecks with a horz...Phil

Thanks Phil,

ISTR a 25 thou cut felt comfortable before I got through the scale. Anything much beyond that and I got a whole lot of ringing getting into the cut, so I wimped out and backed off.

The long studs and tall block stacks probably don't add any rigidity - eh?
Like I said, I was being lazy. To do this properly I would have had to raise the table and take the Z bellows off the machine. Not to mention pull the vise off.
I should try not being lazy next time - it comes easy to me though.

Siggi
 
Fun option 1:

- mild ends flat, and put it vertically on your table (spacer below of course). Clamp it safely and work along Z. Can make any angle you like. (light cuts)

Fun option 2:
- center drill one end. Mount your indexing head however you like (vertically or just on the table). Hold the SE between a chuck/faceplate and the overarm center of the head. Any angle you like... (lighter cuts here)

Sane option:
- make some V blocks (aluminium would work) using your vice and the head at 45 deg. Mount the blocks on your table and hold the SE securely. Make enough blocks to support it properly. Work horizontally or vertically.

Hey Thanos,

Thanks for the "fun" menu :). One thing I didn't get with my dividing head was the overarm and the center - alas.

I guess I'm going to make up or buy some V-blocks and do this properly on the table.

Siggi
 
Thanks Phil,

ISTR a 25 thou cut felt comfortable before I got through the scale. Anything much beyond that and I got a whole lot of ringing getting into the cut, so I wimped out and backed off.

The long studs and tall block stacks probably don't add any rigidity - eh?
Like I said, I was being lazy. To do this properly I would have had to raise the table and take the Z bellows off the machine. Not to mention pull the vise off.
I should try not being lazy next time - it comes easy to me though.

Siggi

Siggi? Phil was being about as "diplomatic".. "overly gentle", even.. about horizontal mill workholding as ever was!

Some of the oldsters who were trained-up FIRST on 'em wudda simply run your careless ass right out the door as "untrainable".

Here's the goal:

TRY to get the workpiece on a pee-bringer, AKA "horizontal mill" no higher off the table than the scars on the Iron of it - and every bit as tightly bound. As if cast in the same mold, even.

A vise is very rarely in the solution.

Use the tee slots. Use clamping sets. Acquire and/or MAKE more of yer own to suit specific tasking.

You are "well tooled" when the mass of angle plates, vee-blocks, clamps & such approaches the mass of the mill itself. And can do damned near ANYTHING 'mill-ish' with it - allegedly "vertical only" working included.

You'll generally fail at getting the work THAT low and THAT tight.. but if you class it as a "good thing" to TRY? Your set ups will at least be a lot closer to goal than not.

That "Towers of Hanoi" rig you DID use would be a disaster-begging for an excuse to raise the Devil in a bad mood - even on a wimp-ass underweight BirdPort.

Which is a "vertical" mill only when sumthin' hasn't BOTHERED to push it well TF out of tram in one or more directions all at the same time.

You got lucky.

VERY!

Don't push that luck in future.

TRUE "lazy" is doing it fast and right so it IS right .. and DONE .. first time, every time, all the time, and at low/no RISK.
 
Siggi? Phil was being about as "diplomatic".. "overly gentle", even.. about horizontal mill workholding as ever was!

Some of the oldsters who were trained-up FIRST on 'em wudda simply run your careless ass right out the door as "untrainable".
Sir, yessir! But can you elaborate on how do you REALLY feel about that setup?

Here's the goal:

TRY to get the workpiece on a pee-bringer, AKA "horizontal mill" no higher off the table than the scars on the Iron of it - and every bit as tightly bound. As if cast in the same mold, even.

A vise is very rarely in the solution.

Use the tee slots. Use clamping sets. Acquire and/or MAKE more of yer own to suit specific tasking.

You are "well tooled" when the mass of angle plates, vee-blocks, clamps & such approaches the mass of the mill itself. And can do damned near ANYTHING 'mill-ish' with it - allegedly "vertical only" working included.

You'll generally fail at getting the work THAT low and THAT tight.. but if you class it as a "good thing" to TRY? Your set ups will at least be a lot closer to goal than not.

Thanks, that's quite helpful, if a little salty :).
I'll be sure aim for this at least in the future. Right now I'm at the stage of owning a good vise and a clamping set, that's about it.

That "Towers of Hanoi" rig you DID use would be a disaster-begging for an excuse to raise the Devil in a bad mood - even on a wimp-ass underweight BirdPort.
Remind me how you REALLY feel about that setup, though :D.

Which is a "vertical" mill only when sumthin' hasn't BOTHERED to push it well TF out of tram in one or more directions all at the same time.

You got lucky.

VERY!

Don't push that luck in future.

TRUE "lazy" is doing it fast and right so it IS right .. and DONE .. first time, every time, all the time, and at low/no RISK.

Thanks, sadly I'm trying to learn a trade from books and YouTube. I don't have a machinist friend or mentor to clap me over the head when I'm being stupid, so it's actually quite helpful to get an earful from you. Stupid is IMHO a question of "when" more than "who", and I appreciate it when I'm told when I've been stupid. Occasionally I manage to avoid a repeat of the same mistake at least.

Maybe we should have a "yell at the n00b setup" forum :D.
 
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I had a similar problem last week, making a set of about 10 fingers for a box and pan brake. The ends needed a 45 deg. Bevel. They were 5” long HRS cut to width. One of the fingers was 8” wide, nearly the length of your straight edge. First I tried clamping the fingers to a 6x6 v-block. The v block didn’t work well, too much unsupported and limited space for clamps. The final iteration of clamping used a 10” angle block clamped to the table at a 45 angle, a 3” parallel to elevate the work to the height that matched the z travel, and a stop so that I would have identical length. Worked well.
 
As to the question at hand...that is machining the 45* tapered face....on yer wall i see horizontal arbors.
Making the assumption that you also have an overarm and outboard support bearing.....

Scout e-bay for an appropriate plain milling cutter with a 45* face....

Something like this:
Niagara Cutter Inc. Milling Cutters F45-32R Single Angle Cutter 45 DEG 3x1/2x1-1 | eBay

Stand the straight edge up with the just finished flat face running vertical....set the opposite edge from the angle into one of the "T" slots, shim or use jacks supporting the camel back and clamp

Mill the angle using a traditional horizontal setup, arbor cutter outboard support......
Cheers Ross
 
Maybe we should have a "yell at the n00b setup" forum :D.

This one "multitasks".

Be happy. You still have a functioning mill, undamaged clamps, and work that came out OK, too. And all your as-built body parts!

As to how to learn? It is no longer as "possible", never was fast nor easy.

Employers want productivity, right way, from even the newest hire. They don't put the investment into training as they once did. Individuals running their own shop have bills to pay, right away, not later.

When companies DID still have thorough training programs? You weren't paid much.. if at all.

Herr Pelz was a wonderful mentor... partly because he TOLD each noob how he had started, age 14 at Daimler - pre War One - and spent his first six months filing an Iron bar about six inches square true - with a 3-cornered file!

The Master mentoring him would inspect, approve, put a groove in it with the trianguler file. Do it again.

The "wonderful" part is that he TOLD us about these practices as they had been. But didn't waste our time making us DO that stuff in the here and NOW!

He figured you could learn better filing as a byproduct of doing useful work. So we did.

I mean.. ANYTHING to avoid six months of filing, right?

:)

Rumour was Herr Pelz would even let you use a machine now and then. But only once a day!

Wasn't so!

"Extra training" volunteered of an evening, he guided me through making a pair of 250 gram toolmaker's layout hammers, German pattern square head, cross pein.

Simple as dirt, yah?

And yet... he managed the progression in such a manner that I used a power hacksaw, drillpress, shaper, horizontal mill, three heat-treat processes, pantograph engraver, surface grinder, and buffer. And my FILES, of course!

And then I had a handle to make and fit. On my own. The native Cherry in it - grown on our family farm - had served the better part of a hundred years as a BED SLAT before I salvaged it. So it is only due for its second tightening just past its 60th year as a hammer handle. A 250 gram "layout" hammer ain't used for no railroad spikes. Finesse, rather, so if they do NOT last a long time... you are doing stuff WRONG!

In his "Old Skewl" days, a Master didn't verbally criticize a 'prentice for a SERIOUS failing. He threw a HAMMER at his FEET! No "steel toad" boots in his day. Wooden-soled sabots, leather strap, home-made woolen socks in the winter, and WATCH OUT for where you put your fragile feet or LOSE them, "personal problem", not the employer's concern.

More than just the "telling of it" to that one.

I actually had to dodge his "anger hammer"... but exactly ONCE.

And I had earned it.. so went-on to do MUCH better!

Not a lesson you EVER forget - even if it misses you!
 
You were running your hz mill like a vetical mill.

Consider that every cut happens on the *top* surface of the part, and every increase of depth of cut, is incremented on the z axis. Cutters should be on arbors in the spindle and you should have the overarm support on there.

So in the case above, turn the part 90 degrees so the tang being clamped is now in the vise itself, surface to be cleaned up is facing upwards. Because you have no easy way to clamp that part directly to the table with the tang, the use of a vise can be forgiven.
 
Because you have no easy way to clamp that part directly to the table with the tang, the use of a vise can be forgiven.

Close. But not just the one.

I'd have used two minimum, three if not four if I could, of the Gerardi's. Inlined, jaws shimmed to suit the casting's natural deviations.

When you have to, you have to, so do it like you MEAN it!

:D

Seriously.

If a horizontal is to use vises? Have (at least) a matching pair.
 
Lots or "sage" advice here....Working in the real world and dealing with lots and i mean lots of unusual machining challenges the reality is that often you don't get the luxury of having the
perfect or even the best setup.....

Doing production or job shop work part of the quote or cost is factored into tooling and fixturing to make the part reliably and efficiently.
Doing one off's or as with my work most often doing repair on an existing part,. where you don't have the luxury of starting from a known location or rough stock. Often on an existing part the best way to hold the part
simply is no longer avaliable, or that hold might alter the critical geometry your trying to salvage

Have run (as in single) a vise on lots of horizontal work. Just finished doing a job making some front brake reaction struts for an E.R.A.....14 inches, long tapered cylindrical and needing a bore and flat faces on each end that were timed to each other.....held in the center in the vise and run horizontal to face and bore each end....Not my favorite setup...Tedious and required using light cuts to eliminate movement and chatter problems....


Its all part of being a Machinist....Ya gotta read the setup, the material, your available tooling and listening to what the tool and part are saying.....sort of like driving a car fast....you get feedback and adjust.

Can't always have ideal setup conditions, but your can react to how the part is behaving while being machined....may not be the most efficient, might take longer than expected. You can improve your
chances for a good outcome by avoiding known pitfalls, like climb milling (sorry Bruce)

Cheers Ross
 








 
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