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New to me fp4nc with 3m control

legoboy

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 14, 2011
Location
Alberta
So I picked up a second Fp4nc, I really didn't need the machine or do I have room for it but it came with an st40 rotary indexer. The machine is an 86 fliphead where as the machine I already have is an older non flip. It has the newer Bosch boards and an extra set for the rotary. This is the good stuff now for the negative. The owner said it was working then after having it sit for several years tried to get it going again after replacing the battery in the power supply and could'nt get it up and running. Knowing these facts I made a conservative offer and the machine is now sitting at home. My plan is to grab the indexer for my machine and try and get machine operating and then sell it as a runner. I have a spare Siemens control and full set of Bosch cards as spares for my first machine so I figured I could probably make it go. Now in the event I cant make it go I will part it out. So my questions for the forum are as follows, Does anyone have a manual for the st40 indexer, and how much money could one get out of parting out a machine? The more valuable parts being the Bosch drive with newer style cards, Siemens control, the hand pendant is also in nice shape. If I would scrap it I will tear it down to the castings so I will also have all the other bits to sell as well. So to sum it up, are these old Deckel nc's worth more as a whole machine or as parts? The machine as a whole has seen a fair amount of use but the ways all seem to be in nice shape, have no idea of the gearbox and spindle unless I get it going. I think If I was able to recoup my costs and gain the 4th axis I would be happy.
 

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Would you please post pictures of the inside of the control cabinet.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

I spent a couple hours cleaning up the cabinet last night, I wanted to do this before I wire it up to the machine. I will take a few pics when I get home
 
Deckel Doctor told me the 3M is somewhat difficult to get running after the parameters are lost, I understand it's a bit "cold blooded" and takes a bit of fiddling and retrying to get it to wake up after being left sit. I don't understand why, but maybe it's not as bad a situation as you might think until you get it powered up and work with it for a while.

I bought a rusted FP3NC from HGR a few years ago, kept the 3M control and sold most of the rest. I cleared a little over $1000 IIRC for the side panels, the non-flip head, the chip pan and coolant sump, and the ballscrews without trying hard. I also kept the Y ram and transmission and motor and servos for spares. That flip head should be worth 1-2K by itself if it's not worn. The 3M pendant is different from the dialog pendant, I don't think you can interchange them but don't know for sure.

I'm planning to make a mailbox post out of what's left of the machine.
 
Here is the pics of inside the cabinet.
 

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Might wish to evaluate the "new" machines mechanical condition....
Some advantages of the later "Flip" machines over your current early "camel back" version...

Sure you are already aware of some of this , but i will restate it for those here that might not know about the differences...

First off of course there is the spindle speed advantage....Having a vertical spindle that can go 6300 RPM makes using small end mills and working in aluminum or doing 3-D
contouring much better....

Second the "Flip" has an improved vertical spindle bevel gear lubrication scheme that lubes and recirculates the oil for those gears...needed for running faster of course.

Then there is the vertical spindle...uses angular contact ball bearings having preload, so makes a better more accurate setup for doing tasks like boring. (all needle roller spindles have radial clearance)
Plus the heavier larger vertical quill...Again more rigid!
Has (small plus) larger easier to read hand feed travel collar on the vertical quill.

These machines have issues with the vertical ways....the later "Flip" machines have improved oil grooves and the column heat treat is better giving a harder more wear resistant way surface here...

Then there are the servos....Later "Flip" machines have the higher speed thermally protected servo motors....Higher rapids are the net result...
Also the later "Flip" machines have longer "Y" travels (approx 1"+)

Finally, the Flip head setup gives rapid "no tramming" swapping from vertical to horizontal and return...a real advantage if you are doing any horizontal work at all...makes the change over pretty painless.

Not a big deal, but the later "Flip" machines also use a different material and connection scheme (cleaner) for the flex conduits that cover the cables to the servos and cabinet...
Almost every early machine i see , especially the "X" servo conduits are broken exposing the cables within to strain (not good)
The later conduits eliminate this problem...don't see those fail, the material is just better.....


Now to be fair, there is some down side on the Flip machines over the earlier "Camelback" machines...
First off you need a more elaborate setup to work with an extended horizontal arbor (overarm outboard bearing)

Also the "Flip" machines will cost a bit of head room as the vertical spindle nose is a bit lower than the earlier machine setup...So if you routinely do tall parts then the earlier machines are to advantage....
Also think the change over to run accessories like the slotting head is a bit easier on the early "Camelback" machines......

Cheers Ross
 
The reason I purchased this machine was for the fourth axis because he wasn't going to sell them separate. When I compare my original machine to this new one the big difference is this machine has seen a lot more miles. The entire machine is covered in a layer of coolant scum and is a little rough all over. Now having said that I did inspect all the slides and there is no galling or obvious wear in the axis. The spindles have a bit of a story to them. I do not believe the previous owner touched the horizontal spindle but he said he did rework the vertical spindle. He told me he had new bearings fitted. Now after a quick inspection I am unsure of how well this job was carried out. It will be hard to determine the state of the spindle without actually taking some cuts. The obvious things I didn't like was he somehow converted the hydraulic drawbar to a manual one and the quill doesn't seem to have much spring tension so makes me leery of how well the spindle was installed. The electronics in the cabinet didn't seem to be overly scummy but looks like there was techs in there over its life time. My goal will be to clean it up the best I can and try and get it operational without spending a lot of cash. I don't mind investing some time but if I throw to much money at it then find out that it has some major issues then it will be all in vain. The one thing I have to my advantage is having another 3m machine to trouble shoot boards with. I am also hoping there isn't a big difference in parameters because I do not have an original parameter list for this machine.
 
The quill return is not a big thing, its a wound flat spring and you can adjust it to your preference via trial and error.Have spent a lot of time running both 3150 and flip head versions of the FP4NC and would agree completely with AlfaGTAs description above.The ease of going vertical to horizontal and back can really pay off.Find the flip machine is a little quieter (mechanically and the servos) and shifts a little better than the 3150.I try to set up really long parts for machining with the horizontal spindle, if you need more Z and want to use the vertical spindle you can mount the table a notch or two lower on the X slide (thx for the tip, Ross). Not sure how fitting the accessory heads is any more difficult on the flip vs the 3150- The head has to be trammed on the 3150 and the flip requires indicating the end of the ram, takes about the same amount of time for either.I like both, but if I had to choose one it would be the flip head.
 
Just an update. So after spending a couple days of heavy duty cleaning I wired up the machine and gave it a go. I did a control reset and entered in the parameters from my other machine. I started the control and booted up the drive. The Bosch drive gave the green light so I went to home the axis. The machine then gave me host of error codes. So now is where all the fun begins. I am guessing that my parameter list won't be the same as this one because the servos are the newer faster ones. As well this one has a c axis. So if anyone has a set of parameters for a later 3m machine I would be greatly appreciative to have a copy.
Cheers
 
Machine is up and running. No error codes all axis seem to run good. Don't think I have all the parameters set correctly because I couldn't get the ten thousands of an inch on the handwheel to work. I tested the handwheel on my other machine and it seems to work fine so don't think the pendant is the issue. I also tried the c axis, when I went to home it it just kept rotating until it gave an error code. I believe I am missing a few parameters. So other than more maintenance the machine seems to work ok. I have not been able to try the spindle because my rotary isn't big enough to start the spindle without shutting down the control. On my other machine I installed a independent 24 volt power supply so when the spindle went to start it didn't effect the control. I will have to do the same on this machine if I decide to keep it. I was only expecting a parts machine from this deal and ended up with another working machine.
 
Might wish to evaluate the "new" machines mechanical condition....
Some advantages of the later "Flip" machines over your current early "camel back" version...

Sure you are already aware of some of this , but i will restate it for those here that might not know about the differences...

First off of course there is the spindle speed advantage....Having a vertical spindle that can go 6300 RPM makes using small end mills and working in aluminum or doing 3-D
contouring much better....

Second the "Flip" has an improved vertical spindle bevel gear lubrication scheme that lubes and recirculates the oil for those gears...needed for running faster of course.

Then there is the vertical spindle...uses angular contact ball bearings having preload, so makes a better more accurate setup for doing tasks like boring. (all needle roller spindles have radial clearance)
Plus the heavier larger vertical quill...Again more rigid!
Has (small plus) larger easier to read hand feed travel collar on the vertical quill.

These machines have issues with the vertical ways....the later "Flip" machines have improved oil grooves and the column heat treat is better giving a harder more wear resistant way surface here...

Then there are the servos....Later "Flip" machines have the higher speed thermally protected servo motors....Higher rapids are the net result...
Also the later "Flip" machines have longer "Y" travels (approx 1"+)

Finally, the Flip head setup gives rapid "no tramming" swapping from vertical to horizontal and return...a real advantage if you are doing any horizontal work at all...makes the change over pretty painless.

Not a big deal, but the later "Flip" machines also use a different material and connection scheme (cleaner) for the flex conduits that cover the cables to the servos and cabinet...
Almost every early machine i see , especially the "X" servo conduits are broken exposing the cables within to strain (not good)
The later conduits eliminate this problem...don't see those fail, the material is just better.....


Now to be fair, there is some down side on the Flip machines over the earlier "Camelback" machines...
First off you need a more elaborate setup to work with an extended horizontal arbor (overarm outboard bearing)

Also the "Flip" machines will cost a bit of head room as the vertical spindle nose is a bit lower than the earlier machine setup...So if you routinely do tall parts then the earlier machines are to advantage....
Also think the change over to run accessories like the slotting head is a bit easier on the early "Camelback" machines......

Cheers Ross
Good info!

Could you elaborate maybe a bit better how the lubrication of the bevel gears works in the 2810 flip head fp4? On mine there is a transparent line connected to a hydraulic hose. It has cracked from age but in the little time I had the machine on and testing things I did not see any oil or so coming in there. I still have to ask Franz Singer if he has a correct manual that might explain how the head is lubricated. Or does one manually have to pour oil in there when putting it at some angle like in the non flip head machines?

This machine also seems to lack a oil drain hole for the front section of the Y ram where it also has a oil level indication. I used now a vacuum oil extractor to get most of the goo out and put new tellus in. Then I noticed the brass plate that should drip oil onto the low speed gear was t effective as the oil would escape from it from the side and no drop of oil made it onto the gear. Therefore the gear looked also a bit dirty and not well lubricated. I fixed this by carefully bending and positioning the plate so now it gets a drop every few seconds at lets say 300ish rpm.

You already answere the question in the other topic. thanks !!
 

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The FP4NC has two oil sight glasses.
Oil is filled at the rear of the “Y” ram.
Oil fills the rear section then spills over to fill the front portion.
There are two drain plugs to allow draining the front and rear sumps.
The front drain is a bit difficult to find.
It is located on the underside of the “Y” slide ways.
To gain access you must move the “Y” forward as far as possible ( to the e stop)
Then the plug will just be forward of the face of the box ways.
Draining can run oil down the vertical ways. I form some sheet metal into a “ski jump” and stick it to the face of the ways using duct tape.
When the plug is removed the oil runs down the face of the”Z” ways , hits the sheet metal and runs out to the metal end and waterfalls into my drain pan sitting on the top of the “Z” slide.

To gain access to the rear sump unsnap the rear bellows from the machine column. Plug will be visible on the bottom of the “Y” slide, just like the front.
Cheers Ross
 
In the mean time I am already a bit used to the FP4NC. I checked the setting of the universal table with a 3D taster by moving the x-y ways, without adjusting anything to it its is still +- 0.01 over the entire table. so far better then expected.

then I put a rod with a dial indicator in the vert spindle to tram the head true to the table. so in the x-z plane this is easy, now in the y-z plane there is quite error in the spindle. over the width of the table I am looking at 0.2mm :/

I flipped the head back up and re checked that the upper and lower half of the Y slide where aligned, this was the case. to correct it now I put 2 strips of 0.05mm between the top half of the Y slide and head mounting plate. with careful torquing then its true within 0.02 mm. so im a bit struck by how I should correct his in a more permanent way. There are no obvious burrs or so at the mounting flanges. I checked the play on the Y slide and when putting it max forward and levering ti up with a piece of wood w lets say medium force it only moves up and down by about 0.02mm so id say that is also not bad
 

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So I think your test process is incorrect.
First , set the upper and lower front faces of the “Y” slide are aligned. Fo this by tramming with a good test indicator and moving the “Z” axis.
Alignment must be less than .001” total difference between the two faces.

Next check and adjust the table to be dead flat in the “X” direction. Do this using the test indicator and moving the table via the “X”. Use a gauge block, or good quality 1,2,3 block on the table to bridge the table surface planing.
Test at different points (move”Y” )
Take best average.

Now use your bar in the spindle to
Sweep the table top with the test indicator and gauge block,1,2,3 block.
Test at 4 points ( 12, 3,6 and 9)..
Points 3 and 6 are used to set the “truth” of the vertical head, adjust at the protractor. ( head side tilt)

The positions of 12 and 6 indications are used to adjust the universal table for front/back tilt.

If the table after the previous settings measures out of flat when trammed by moving the “Y” , the issue lies with wear on the “Z” (forward leaning ) and/or the “Y” wear.

Correction should never be made by shimming the “flip” plate. This will override the precision fit up is that plate on its tapered dowels. Also shimming will induce an angle at the drive coupling that powers the vertical head. ( wear and vibration)

A stopgap solution would be to re-scrape the vertical head rotation joint.

The proper solution is to correct wear (geometry) at the “Z”, “X” snd “Y” slides.

Side note, be careful using a 3-d tester to indicate a surface, they are not always good at small constant changes, better to use a test indicator.

Cheers Ross
 
Hmm I think as the table was flat by moving the X and Y full range probably it was set up to be that way. So if I would set it true to the spindle axis then it would be out of by the same amount moving the Y, which is possible worse even.

I was planing a cylinder head that day and that's how I found out the spindle axis was out of true. I shimmed the head plate only 0.05mm which I hope will not be too much of an issue with the drive coupling. But yes as you also feel its a bit of a crap solution an its trying to bend the mounting plate of the head. I will anyway also not be able to completely get rid of possible Y and Z guide wear so I though the easiest would be to put the plate on which the head bolts grind very slightly under an angle on my blanchard #10. on the bottom I would remove approx 0.025mm (0.001 inch) more then at the top.IMG_6612.png
 

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Mostly the tests above will guarantee that the ways are parallel, not perpendicular. Perpendicularity is the problem to solve. Get out your master precision level, set the column to exact vertical and adjust the table to horizontal. Now sweep in the head and check the Y slide for parallel. You will probably either need to scrape the column or the Y slide if perfection is your goal. Otherwise you can compromise and know what the limitations are.
 
Hmm I think as the table was flat by moving the X and Y full range probably it was set up to be that way. So if I would set it true to the spindle axis then it would be out of by the same amount moving the Y, which is possible worse even.

I was planing a cylinder head that day and that's how I found out the spindle axis was out of true. I shimmed the head plate only 0.05mm which I hope will not be too much of an issue with the drive coupling. But yes as you also feel its a bit of a crap solution an its trying to bend the mounting plate of the head. I will anyway also not be able to completely get rid of possible Y and Z guide wear so I though the easiest would be to put the plate on which the head bolts grind very slightly under an angle on my blanchard #10. on the bottom I would remove approx 0.025mm (0.001 inch) more then at the top.View attachment 426977
Please do not grind that plate as you indicate....There are very precise tapered dowels between that plate and the slide face! Any material removed will irreparably change the fit up of those dowels and the alignment of the plate..
If you must induce an angle to the vertical head do so at the head swivel joint (where the protractor is)
Those surfaces are factory scraped, so a bit of additional; scraping would give what you seek.....

Cheers Ross
 
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