Placement and overhang of Deckel model 6017 380mm rotary table
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    Default Placement and overhang of Deckel model 6017 380mm rotary table

    I'm making some cast iron laps, using a Deckel 6017 rotary table on my FP2. I have a question about the placement.

    The table has knobs and controls underneath which lie below the place of the feet. So the only reasonable way to mount it on my FP2 is at the front of the horizontal table, like this:



    That puts it quite far from the column and horizontal spindle. Is this what Deckel intended, or was there a different solution envisioned for the FP2, which puts the table closer to the column?

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    The Kastentisch can be mounted closer to the column but higher up then
    So perhaps not enough daylight
    BTW What knobs lay below the the mounting surface ?
    Another BTW Why use the rotary table to make that lapping plate??

    Peter

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    Hi Peter,

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    The Kastentisch can be mounted closer to the column but higher up then. So perhaps not enough daylight.
    I have the impression that the 6017 rotary table was designed for the FP1, which has a narrower horizontal table than the FP2.

    BTW What knobs lay below the the mounting surface ?
    There are two controls below the mounting plane. One is a knob that you pull down to release the lock pin set at 15 degree increments (24 evenly spaced stops). The second is the rotary locking lever.

    Another BTW Why use the rotary table to make that lapping plate?
    I'm making three plates (A,B,C) so I can lap them against each other for flatness, AB then BC then CA and so on. The plates are 250mm diameter, so to cut the grooves there is not enough Y travel (200mm) on my FP2. At first I clamped a plate directly on the table, but spent more time doing setup than cutting. On the rotary table I can cut and rotate with no setup between cuts, just rotate the table. That saves almost all of the setup time. Here's what it looks like:


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    This is what 2-4-6 blocks are for....And yes that r-table was originally designed for the FP1..
    I have a collection of "riser" plates that i have saved from the scrap yard. Tee slots on the top and hold down lugs on the lower edged..(these are common on boring mills)..I have several different sizes.
    But the 2-4-6 blocks that are through and cross drilled are most convenient. One can pass hold down bolts through the holes from say your rotary to the machine table.
    Also have a collection of shop made spacer blocks....Round from pre hardened stock. Cut off in the lathe and then surface ground on both sides....Make these with a through hole
    and a good sized counter bore on one side.....Very handy for holding parts that have perimeter bolt patterns. Bolt the disc to the edge of a part and then place the disc on the machine table. Edge of the disc will
    extend outside of the part edge and allow use of a hold down clamp....Have a variety of OD's and lengths as needed.

    Don't need to reach further than the mid point of the table...right!

    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    I'm making some cast iron laps, using a Deckel 6017 rotary table on my FP2. I have a question about the placement.

    The table has knobs and controls underneath which lie below the place of the feet. So the only reasonable way to mount it on my FP2 is at the front of the horizontal table, like this:



    That puts it quite far from the column and horizontal spindle. Is this what Deckel intended, or was there a different solution envisioned for the FP2, which puts the table closer to the column?
    I wondered the same thing. My manual has this depiction, which has the rotary table perched all the way out to the edge of the angular table:
    circular-table.jpg

    Of course if you flip the horizontal table around, you get closer to the column by some 90-90mm - at the cost of a fair bit of Z.

    circular-table.jpg

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    Hi Ross,

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    This is what 2-4-6 blocks are for.
    I have some 1-2-3 blocks but not 2-4-6.

    I think I'll make a standoff plate. Should I make it so that the rotab bolts to the plate and the plate to the mill table? Or better to just go through the plate directly to the table?

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    I had a look in some old Deckel sales literature, and found this in their 1969 catalog:



    The horizontal table goes OVER the top of the vertical table so brings the rotary table about 10cm closer to the column. Funny coincidence: I think they are using this to cut slots in a square lapping plate -- I can not think of another reason to put this onto a rotary table except to rotate 90 degrees for the perpendicular cuts.

    Here's another photo from above, showing how it brings the table relatively close to the vertical column bellows:



    Martin, I found this in a French brochure from the mid-60s.



    It shows the small table which you indicated, but describes it as a "right angle table for clamping of low or irregular parts. Surfaces scraped and perfectly square." So I have the impression that it was not intended to mount the rotary table, although I am sure it would do that very well.

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    Hmmm, have been looking for that table/spacer Martin showed on my side of the Atlantic for years... Is it common in second hand European market?

    L7

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    I believe this might be the riser you are looking for...

    However, this came out of an FP4M manual-- I'm not sure if the T-slot spacing
    would match the FP2.

    20201227_194928.jpg

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    Hi Matt,

    Quote Originally Posted by sneebot View Post
    This might be the riser ... however, this came out of an FP4M manual-- I'm not sure if the T-slot spacing would match the FP2.
    Thanks for posting. The picture makes me think that Deckel wanted to keep using their 380mm rotary table, originally designed for an FP1, on later larger machines. So they kept on improvising spacers and other mounting solutions. My FP2 has a 45mm T-slot spacing, which matches the 6017 table feet. So to use this on later machines with a bigger slot spacing (is it 60mm?) they made adaptor mounting plates like you've shown. I'm starting to think a similar plate but matched to my machine might be the best solution.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Lucky7, the thing I show is actually quite rare and that price is OK.

    Sneebot is showing the correct table for the purpose, I got it confused. This one is also quite rare. Normally, when they do come up so rarely, people do not know what they are, so they are not advertised as Deckel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    I had a look in some old Deckel sales literature, and found this in their 1969 catalog:



    The horizontal table goes OVER the top of the vertical table so brings the rotary table about 10cm closer to the column. Funny coincidence: I think they are using this to cut slots in a square lapping plate -- I can not think of another reason to put this onto a rotary table except to rotate 90 degrees for the perpendicular cuts.

    Here's another photo from above, showing how it brings the table relatively close to the vertical column bellows:



    Martin, I found this in a French brochure from the mid-60s.



    It shows the small table which you indicated, but describes it as a "right angle table for clamping of low or irregular parts. Surfaces scraped and perfectly square." So I have the impression that it was not intended to mount the rotary table, although I am sure it would do that very well.


    Thats what I was talking about in my post #2


    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Thats what I was talking about in my post #2.
    OK, now I understand!

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    For the record, here are the worst cases:





    The handles and knobs project 40mm below the mounting plane. So a 45mm standoff is needed. The footprint is 200x300mm. For the record, a solid piece of steel or cast iron that size would be 22kg. If I can get a suitable sized bit of scrap I will grind it parallel and mill some pockets and holes/slots in it.

    The back of the table is currently 135mm from the Z-axis bellows. So if I move it back 90mm (two T slots) or a bit more, that will be just right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post

    The handles and knobs project 40mm below the mounting plane. So a 45mm standoff is needed. T
    Yep, that makes a 2-4-6 block just perfect. Purchase a pair and use lying flat , one under each side of your rotab....
    Easily handled and quite useful for additional fixturing chores....Your hold down bolts will pass through the drilled holes.(at least the ones i own)...
    Can be held in the vise like an angle plate or stood up on end and bolted through the end drillings...
    IMO much more versatile than a dedicated single plane plate....I own 4 matched in all dimensions and use then quite often.Some examples:









    Nice thing about the 2-4-6 is that they and be moved around to suit different needs...

    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    Here's a photo of the 6017 rotary table from underneath (hanging from a chain hoist):



    The two support holes are 135mm apart. Doesn't that mean that I would need four 2-4-6 blocks rather than two?

    I like the idea of a clamping table, because that could support the table under all of the points in the seating plane, rather than simply the four clamp points.

    Would it be enough to support this on the area around the clamping slots? In that case I could use two pieces of ground steel 45 x 100 x 200 and leave the middle unsupported. But one thing I also like about a custom slab with full support is that it can be a bit wider than the table, with clamping ears, so the rotary table clamps to the slab and the slab can be clamped anywhere, via the ears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    OK, now I understand!
    Also, when you flip the table, the underside of the horizontal table registers against the top edge of the vertical table. You'll get more rigidity and possibly better registration than the keys on the other side will give against the vertical table slots.
    Last edited by sigurasg; 12-28-2020 at 03:45 PM. Reason: gramar[sic]

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    Also, when you flip the table, the underside of the horizontal table registers against the top edge of the vertical table. You'll get more rigidity and possibly better registration than the keys on the other side will give against the vertical table slots.
    That makes sense. Problem is that I don't own that model of horizontal table, only the extra-large one. I've looked online and these smaller horizontal tables cost 700-2000 Euros. Not sure it's worth that to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen
    My FP2 has a 45mm T-slot spacing, which matches the 6017 table feet. So to use this on later machines with a bigger slot spacing (is it 60mm?) they made adaptor mounting plates like you've shown.
    63mm.

    One of the brochures here, also shows an even smaller riser was also available in that same spacingimg174.jpg

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