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Problem with Z feed trip lever on Deckel FP1

mTeryk

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Location
corvallis,or
The Feed stops on my 1977 two dial Deckel FP1 don't seem to be functioning as they should and I am wondering if anyone has input as to what the problem could be.

It appears that the Z-feed trip lever rests in the wrong location when the autofeed is not engaged such that it is not possible to manually feed through the feed stops. In comparison, on the x-axis, the feed stops halt the autofeed but I can manually feed past the stops without hindrance. Attempting to manually feed past the z-axis feed stops either causes a jam or creates a loud clacking noise. There is enough play in the feed trip lever that I can push it into the appropriate position without engaging the autofeed after which I can manually feed fine until I engage and disengage the autofeed again.

I am wondering if this might also have to do with a bit of a hair trigger on the z-axis autofeed. At first I thought that I just needed to get used to the "stick shift", but it does seem either a bit too easy to slip into the z-axis feed at some times and too difficult at others. Perhaps there is a worn interface within the apron that is causing both of these problems.

Does this sound familiar to anyone? The following picture shows the feed trip lever without the z-axis autofeed engaged.

P1030194.JPG


Teryk
 
Here are two shots of the internals of the saddle, that might give you some ideas.

The feed "stick" actuates a shaft that's entering the saddle on the right side.

That shaft actuates the fork raising or lowering the z-axis clutch gear on its arbor. The shaft is secured to the fork with a set screw and a key.

On the other side of the shifting fork, another shaft is connected with what you call the feed lever, on the left of the saddle. It is held in position exactly the same way on the fork, and by the mean of a tapered pin on the feed lever.

On the second picture, one can see (although it is not obvious), the indexing finger below the fork. The shifiting fork beeing directly indexed with no intermediate part, it is hard to believe you could have any kind of misalignment here.

Most likely, your problem is between the fork and the second shaft that's actuated by the feed lever. Either on the fork, with somerthing wrong with the key and the set screw (bad news in this case is you're in for a complete saddle removal...), or on the feed lever with a broken or bent tapered pin.

Deckel FP1 console (1).jpg

Deckel FP1 console (12).jpg
 
Thanks TNB. I'll take a closer at your pictures when I get off work. Your pictures plus the parts diagram should give me a good place to start.
 
The fork TNB mentiones has some notches where a spring powered round cam ensures the 3 positions in the lever
If that round cam is rotated 180dgr the lever might be off a bit
The feed trip lever should not have any play If it has some that is the coase

Peter from Holland
 
Took another look at it tonight. With a better understanding of the internals I was able to get a better feel for what is going on. There is no play between the feed lever on the right side and the lever tripped by the stops on the left. In addition, there is really no play at all. I can feel the three notches easily when moving the lever and what I felt before might be play is really just pushing the lever so that it stops between the notches. Sounds what like what Peter described is the most likely explanation. For now I have just removed the feed stops and will put fixing this on my to-do list as I do not think I am damaging anything by using it this way.

Thank you Peter and TNB for your help.

On a related note, has anyone seen a shift lever extension such as the one below? It provides a second handle for shifting the z-axis feed from the front of the mill. All of the bolts on it are imperial so I am assuming it is shop made.

P1030195.JPG


Teryk
 
Oh my ! Did you buy the machine from Rube Goldberg ? :)

Of course it is shop made.
Would have been so easier and/or cleaner to put attach that extra lever directly to the shaft or the trip lever !
 
Funny how some folks are so conditioned in their habits that they must modify the machine to be able to use it rather than adjusting their working style...

Sort of like going to the UK , buying a right hand drive car and then fitting it with dual controls so you can drive it from the left....
It is not hard to adjust ...sort of like driving a car with a center accelerator pedal...you just do it....

Cheers Ross
 
My Deckel clone has those "stops" on with the passing place, in addition it has another set of end stops which have a V machined in them to catch the rod on the trip lever. They work perfectly and seem to be part of the original machine. I am confused as to what these passing place bits are meant to do. On my machine the slot to the side of them, allows the rod to pass over them.
Could it be to reset the trip when the table moves over them in the wrong direction with some additional (missing) parts, so the table will oscillate end to end on its own?
Frank
 
Sounds like the v stops you describe are what I would call terminal stops. They stop both auto and manual feed at the extent of the table travel. The other stops, on mine, are intended to stop the auto feed but allow one to manually feed past the stop in either direction. This is how it works on the x-axis, but not the z.

Teryk
 
Does this sound familiar to anyone? The following picture shows the feed trip lever without the z-axis autofeed engaged.

P1030194.JPG


Teryk

Teryk,

I just had these pieces off my mill and was cleaning them up yesterday afternoon. I wasn't quite sure what that piece is for, but I think it is so you can stack gauge blocks and be able to measure...I know the opposite side is used for that, there's a similar t-slot. On the other side there is a spot for a plunge style gauge to measure against gauge blocks (per the manual, I don't have any that will fit it).

On mine those pieces slide under the acuator arm, but are tripped by the u-shaped fork, there is one on top and one on the bottom, which are fixed with pins holding them in a fixed position at the top and bottom of travel. It is an interesting way they pinned those in the top and bottom of the slot using a t-nut.

I removed the two center ones as shown in your pic, as I'm not exactly sure what I would use them for.

I had another horizontal bar on my mill that was for gauge blocks to be stacked for X feed stops, and when wrench was over my house a while ago we just took that off also.

My question is how are these adjustable stops used? Are they to be used with gauge blocks and trip the accuator? Seeing that they are designed so that they slide under the acccuator, it's not clear to me what the actual intended use is. Something must go on top of the u-shape to trip the accuator ???

Cheers,
Alan
 
I removed the two center ones as shown in your pic, as I'm not exactly sure what I would use them for.
...
My question is how are these adjustable stops used? Are they to be used with gauge blocks and trip the accuator? Seeing that they are designed so that they slide under the acccuator, it's not clear to me what the actual intended use is. Something must go on top of the u-shape to trip the accuator ???

The stop slides under the actuator only when manually feeding. When the autofeed is engaged, the actuator arm is in a position that it hits the side of the stop and kicks the autofeed off. It is actually quite a nice setup. I ended up working around the problem with my z-axis feed by making stops that work with the actuator in the existing (incorrect) position. I'll see if I can shoot some video tomorrow or monday that might make the functionality clearer.

Teryk
 
The stop slides under the actuator only when manually feeding. When the autofeed is engaged, the actuator arm is in a position that it hits the side of the stop and kicks the autofeed off. It is actually quite a nice setup. I ended up working around the problem with my z-axis feed by making stops that work with the actuator in the existing (incorrect) position. I'll see if I can shoot some video tomorrow or monday that might make the functionality clearer.

Teryk

Actually, that's something I didn't know. That is actually nice, the way you described it. So, the actual acuator/flipper moves over and hits the solid section. Stupid me...:dunce:

I think I might be missing some stuff from the other side, and wasn't sure how a plunge indicator should attach. I find the dials accurate and haven't used the stops at all. My X is the one I run into mostly, on either side. At least most of the time I raise Z manually, and use the X feed for my cut and/or adjust Y to continue using the X feed.

I do use the Z feed when drilling, and I think that is one of the unique things about the Deckel.

The one thing that bothers me, as I most often reach over the top of the vertical head, is the lever to lock the vertical head in place. There must be a reason it's on the opposite side from all the other controls. I find it's rare that even small details have not been thought about by the Germans as the designs evolve and for that reason believe there must be a reason it's on that side, as it is. Just that both X and Z lever locks are on the opposite side as are the speeds and feeds, coolant, etc...

I really need to tear mine down, clean and paint it, put new bearings in the drive shaft, etc...just that I want to use it for the time being... :o

I think I'm going to go use it now...the first of which will be to put those stops back on and test it out. ;)
 
I do use the Z feed when drilling, and I think that is one of the unique things about the Deckel.

The one thing that bothers me, as I most often reach over the top of the vertical head, is the lever to lock the vertical head in place. There must be a reason it's on the opposite side from all the other controls.

Z feed is most useful when boring, drilling too I suppose that usually goes fast enough I just feed the quill by hand.

I assume you are talking about the Y axis lock. That is curious I've wondered that too, why is it on the wrong side?
 
Z feed is most useful when boring, drilling too I suppose that usually goes fast enough I just feed the quill by hand.

I assume you are talking about the Y axis lock. That is curious I've wondered that too, why is it on the wrong side?

Yes, the Y axis lock.

I've read here don't use the quill for too much, and it's a very small throw. It is said to use for more precise work. I've taken apart and assembled my quil spring/handle about 4 times now, and the spring keeps on popping out of the handle and unwinds. I have it working at the moment and not touching it...LOL I think I will need to get a new spring or bend the end so it stays in the slot better...hard to explain.

Even if not using the Z feed, the handwheel is conveniently located on that side and not bad to drill with, much more stout than the quill.

Having the power feed is a nice plus. ;)

I was just looking at the Z lever accuator TeryK, the Germans never fail to amaze me...quite an interesting setup, given that it is entirely mechanical. The levers for the X acctuator trip is clever, but more so in regard to how they trip the Z accuator. Made me think that your problem might be that the rod doesn't rotate that runs from the joy stick to the Z accuator on the other side. So, that part is clever how for the up/down movement it rotates the rod which flips the accuator, and the X axis movement flips the rods for the X.

Does your rod rotate when you flip the joy stick up or down? Maybe that has already mentioned and solved, but I don't see that. My guess is the linkage from joy stick to rod, as it looks like the rod only pass through to the accuator.

Cheers,
Alan
 








 
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