reconditioning a Deckel table

rimcanyon · Sep 16, 2008

The table on my new fp2 (well new in the sense that it has just appeared in my shop and formerly was in Benicia, where it sat unused since Ross acquired it from Willson's) is full of divots and milling cuts. It offends sensibility that someone could treat a Deckel so :willy_nilly:

.

I would like to resurface the table top, and I believe a planer with a feed rate of about 4mm - 6mm between strokes with a slightly radiused cutter would be the right way to do it. I've read the archives on this topic, but could not find a post where someone actually went ahead and had their table planed.

Where in the bay area can I find a shop with a planer, and an operator capable of keeping the table flat to the Deckel specs? Actually, shipping the table is definitely an option I would consider.

-Dave

rimcanyon · Sep 17, 2008

No responses in two days. Does that imply that no-one has actually had a Deckel table planed, at least reading this forum? Or that shops with the capability just don't exist outside of Germany?

-Dave

deckeldoctor · Sep 17, 2008

Hello Dave,

I have never had a table re-planed. I have scraped tables to remove dips in the middle from sliding vises on and off. I have resurfaced table by milling them on a big horizontal. But if you are after that original design surface then you will have to find someone capable.

Regards
DD

rimcanyon · Sep 17, 2008

Thanks for the reply, Don. The last table I resurfaced, on a Hardinge mill, I had ground, then hand scraped. I did not frost it, just got it flat (and that took quite a bit of scraping, since the grinding left about .002" of cup on the table).

Hand scraping provides a nice non-stick surface and has held up quite well. That will be the way I go here if I cannot find a shop with a planer.

-Dave

Panza · Sep 18, 2008

There was a discussion about that exact topic a few months ago. I can't remember which method the factory used to get that finish but I think it was explained in that thread..

yoyo · Sep 18, 2008

A while ago there was this topic about tables:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=109525

But this is the picture of the machine your looking for:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=110284

rimcanyon · Sep 18, 2008

Yes, I have read and learned much from those threads. The question at hand, slightly morphed from orig. post, is there a shop somewhere in the Bay Area (or in California or the US or Canada) which has a suitable planer (& operator) that I can trust with my table, and have you first hand knowledge of such?

Arno's old post about having such a planer at one time is an encouragement; perhaps it still exists in some shop in Canada.

-Dave

AlfaGTA · Sep 18, 2008

I know Forrest Addy has a planer and when i took his scraping class two years ago i asked him if he would be willing to surface some Deckel tables...he declined, but gave me a business card of a shop in the Seattle area that had a planer and according to Forrest could do a good job on a table.
I since have lost the card so don't have the answer directly. Perhaps you could contact Forrest and see if he can shed some light on this topic.
Cheers Ross

Colt45 · Sep 18, 2008

Hey Dave
Don't mean to hijack your thread, but I have a couple related questions and hope someone reading this can comment-

1- Are the NCT tables supposed to have the shallow planed surface like on the Universal and fixed tables? If not, why?

2- The vertical surface on the X axis has a deeply planed surface (much deeper than the tables)- why don't the tables come this way?

FWIW, I believe there is a company (perhaps 2, if memory serves correct) here in Salt Lake that has a planer, and reconditions machines- I will check into them and report back here.

Steve

AlfaGTA · Sep 19, 2008

Steve:
Not sure i can answer your question, in fact there was some heated discussions hiere on the board regarding the planed table surfaces and its merrits.
As to the NCT 500 table, in sales brochures where photos of the table top are shown, it looks as though the factory finish is a ground surface, not planed. Believe this is the case on the manual rotary tables as well. I might offer some reasoning here, but nothing really firm of course.
The rotary tables are a might smaller than the universal or plain table tops, and because of their construction lend themselves well to plaining....the tables mount easily and in the case of the universal machining can be done on just the top, so no pushing or side impact loads fed into the mechanism.
A round table presents some trouble to plane as the tool enters the part at an angle to the surface a feature that tends to make the tool "push" to the side some depending on how steep the angle. (where on the circle the cut is)
It also seems likely that the table top and underside might be finished at the same time and grinding would be used on the under face.

As to the vertical table surface...om my CNC machines think there is no planing here. The reliefs on mine are milled while the flat face is ground.....again in the CNC machine the way surfaces and mounting face would be ground at the same time to eliminate any bow form working just one face...
Cheers Ross

rimcanyon · Sep 19, 2008

Forrest Addy suggested Lindmark Machine Works in Seattle.

Here is a picture of their planing mill; it certainly looks up to the job:

yoyo · Sep 19, 2008

rimcanyon said:
Forrest Addy suggested Lindmark Machine Works in Seattle.
Here is a picture of their planing mill; it certainly looks up to the job:

I propose to make a list with all members that want their tables done. I guess we can do about 50 tables for the price of 1 in one setup

Colt45 · Sep 19, 2008

I saw that other thread and find it interesting reading.

I guess I ASSumed the deep finish on the vertical mounting surface was finished using the same process as the table obviously it's not.

Thanks for the insight, makes perfect sense to me, Ross. :smoking:

sidecar580 · Sep 19, 2008

You would want the table top resurfaced on a plainer, not a plainer miller.
John Fahnestock
J&L Scraping Service
www.j-lscraping.com

Milacron · Sep 19, 2008

sidecar580 said:
You would want the table top resurfaced on a plainer, not a plainer miller.
John Fahnestock
J&L Scraping Service
www.j-lscraping.com

Good point but I think I see a planer head on the right side of that open sided planer's horizontal arm. Hard to tell for sure though. I guess in theory one could use a large ball end mill in a mill head to replicate the planer surface but it would be a PITA if not a CNC machine.

rimcanyon · Sep 19, 2008

I spoke to Bud Hagstrom at Lindmark Machine, very knowledgeable and nice to deal with. He confirmed that every planer they have can do both planing and milling, and they have machines from 6' to the large planing mill shown in the picture.

Bud estimated $250-$300 for a single table, and the price would go down if there were multiple tables

He said that there aren't many shops that do bed reconditioning like they do left on the west coast. Probably close to none.

-Dave

Peter from Holland · Sep 20, 2008

A big enough CNC milling machine can do the very same
Make a tool like on a shaper Mount it on a NT40 or whatever your mill is taking
Block the spindle and you have a CNC planer

Tablesurfaces were normalized by Prof.Schlesinger Most of DIN normalisation is from his hand Lots of rebuilding compagnies in Germany still do refer to the Schlesinger norms It says to use a round tool and shift 10% of the diamater of the tool The more accurate the machine the smalller the radius of the tool So if you measure the shift seen on your table you can calculate the diam of your tool
Here is another thread Thane Cody started about tablesurfaces
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=109069&highlight=deckel+table+surface

Peter

Milacron · Sep 20, 2008

peterve said:
A big enough CNC milling machine can do the very same
Make a tool like on a shaper Mount it on a NT40 or whatever your mill is taking
Block the spindle and you have a CNC planer

And how do you "block the spindle" ? I wonder if the M19 code for spindle orient (to line up with tool changer and hold position) would hold the tool well enough for planing operations ?

Peter from Holland · Sep 20, 2008

Milacron said:
And how do you "block the spindle" ? I wonder if the M19 code for spindle orient (to line up with tool changer and hold position) would hold the tool well enough for planing operations ?

Well actualy the bit was offset out of center a couple of cm so it orientated itself But me beeing no machinist that would be the last to stop me from trying

Peter

AlfaGTA · Sep 21, 2008

peterve said:
A big enough CNC milling machine can do the very same
Make a tool like on a shaper Mount it on a NT40 or whatever your mill is taking
Block the spindle and you have a CNC planer

Peter

Need to be careful about loading precision rolling element bearings with side impacts if they are not rotating.....Could cause the need for an expensieve repair.....
Cheers Ross

reconditioning a Deckel table

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