Removing an FP2's Sticky Horizontal Quill

Hello everyone,

I just purchased a Deckel FP2 last week. It had been sitting inside for a few years and the horizontal quill was tight and difficult to move. I could turn the feed wheel by hand and move the quill but it was difficult. I worked it in and out a few times, and put a few drops of light machine oil on the outside of the quill. This didn't help.

The manual made removal sound fairly straightforward, so I tried that. I removed the vertical head, then the quill stop screw, and turned the feed handle until the helical gears disengaged from the quill. After that I am supposed to "remove the quill and spindle", but this thing is stuck. I removed the worm gear assembly and tapped the spindle back into the headstock about an inch. It was quite difficult to do. I then reassembled the helical gears and tried to move the quill, but it now feels solidly stuck in place. I removed the gears and tried tapping with a deadblow. The quill slot was slightly misaligned with the stop screw hole, so I used a strap wrench and lined it back up (again, things are very tight).

I pulled the four bolts that hold the ring in place around the front of the head (not sure what this does), and the top two were rusty... so I'm guessing that is a clue.

So what do you guys suggest? I want to get the quill working smoothly, but I don't want to damage anything.

Brian

bdsmith21 said:

So what do you guys suggest?

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I suggest you get advice from someone that has intimate experience with the FP2, such as Ross, Peter or Bruce.

I would start soaking as much of the spindle through the top with some type of penetrating oil, such as PB Blaster or Liquid wrench.

After a good soaking, I would then apply kerosene, I like to use kerosene/diesel to clean things up on machines as it has a lubricating quality on metal. However, some people don't like that and fear their shop is going to burn down with open fuel in the air, and if that is the case with you just use what you prefer.

Then I would disassemble the spindle and get it all out of the machine, clean everything really well, and oil/lube everything up nicely and put it back together. Then I would probably oil and lube the $#!T out of everything, just because.

Then I would hopefully start making chips!

Oh, and congrats on the FP2, I'd like to have one of them in a bad way...but it's gonna need to wait.

traditional-tools said:

I suggest you get advice from someone that has intimate experience with the FP2, such as Ross, Peter or Bruce.

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I've never taken the horizontal quill out of the headstock of my FP2. So Ross, Peter, TNB or one of the other regulars is a better bet for advice.

I have noticed that the horizontal quill is a very precise fit, and even the temperature change as the machine warms up can make it uncomfortably snug. So once you get it out, it's probably just a matter of scrubbing off the ancient oil and goo that have turned to varnish, and it will feel good again.

Do take it slow and cautious, so you don't do any harm.

PS: I think Thanos' FP2 also has a horizontal quill that he can't get out. He might also add something here.

Cheers,
Bruce

ballen said:

I've never taken the horizontal quill out of the headstock of my FP2. So Ross, Peter, TNB or one of the other regulars is a better bet for advice.

I have noticed that the horizontal quill is a very precise fit, and even the temperature change as the machine warms up can make it uncomfortably snug. So once you get it out, it's probably just a matter of scrubbing off the ancient oil and goo that have turned to varnish, and it will feel good again.

Do take it slow and cautious, so you don't do any harm.

PS: I think Thanos' FP2 also has a horizontal quill that he can't get out. He might also add something here.

Cheers,
Bruce

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Right Bruce, but I stiill have not removed it.....

Hi Brian, congratulations on your new FP2!

I am facing a similar, if not worst problem than yours. See the rear side of my horizontal quill here:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...e-fp2-me-well-336969-post3003782/#post3003782

There is some discoloration and it might be swollen, apparently due to overheating. It actually start to bind before the end of the quill's travel. However I am aware of the tolerances to the casting (that's why that quill has that devine feeling after all) so that I will not try to remove it unless properly prepared. That is 'freeze' sprays, heating guns for the casting etc. Some measurements as well, if I manage to get a micrometer down there....

In your case I would consider heating the casting gently, cooling the quill probably, and all of this having a puller there (remove the drawbar, turn a flange to rest on the quill and not the spindle and pull it from the front).

Good luck, keep us posted.
BR,
Thanos

thanvg said:

Bruce both links worked in my browser, but went on an replaced my original with the one you posted. Please confirm if it works now. Thanks!

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Works now. I suggest you delete your message that I quote in the previous line, and I will delete this message.

Here is a link to pictures of my mill. https://flic.kr/s/aHskZCuXxT
I can't figure out how to get a url from flicker to post here.

I am currently designing a tube/plate/threaded rod tool to remove the quill. My plan is to remove the spindle (a somewhat scary proposition to me!) and insert a 3/4" threaded rod through the hollow quill. I will make a large washer/spacer that loosely fits inside the quill bore behind the quill and back this with a washer and 3/4" jam nuts. I will place a loose fitting tube (about 5" OD, maybe aluminum) around the portion of the quill that is sticking out of the headstock, place another washer/spacer on the end of this tube, and use nuts on the threaded rod to slowly pull the quill out of the headstock.

I will post some pictures of the tool design later today. Edit: link to photo Flickr: Page Not Found

My other thought is to leave the spindle alone and make a tool that grips the outside of the quill and pull it that way, but I really don't like the idea of squeezing the quill.

First off not sure why one would take the spindle out of the quill....
Remove the draw bar. In fact believe you must remove the draw bar in order to remove the spindle assembly as the retaining nut on the draw bar overhangs the drive keyway slots and
as such will prevent the spindle from coming out.

Once the draw bar is out (remove the taper pin, unscrew the retaining nut and push the draw bar out the front....) That will provide a through hole for your pulling thread.
Use the sleeve larger than the quill to pull against with one nut at the end of the spindle where the draw bar was.....Spindle will act as a thrust bearing when you tighten the nut to pull the spindle out.


Once the spindle is out, you can carefully clean the housing bore....The outside disc retained by the 4 Allen bolts is part of the spindle lock setup,,,,but it also ,i believe , provides support for the quill.(extension of
the housing) and as such its alignment is important. Factory covers the bolts when the machine is built and my belief is that its best to not disturb that plate! With the quill in place , there is no nice way to remove the disc.
Suppose you could drill and tap the disc in a couple of spots and pull it out, but again i would avoid this if possible.
Behind the disc is a second ring that is split and clamps the quill when the clamping lever is tightened. (closes the split) What makes the quill stay in position front to rear is the outside disc....it is setup to have zero (or almost) play to the inner split clamp ring.
Over time coolant, dirt and crud can get in the space around the inner split ring and make the quill action stiff or unmovable.....You need to remove the quill and flush out the area around the ring and outer plate.
You can get some movement on the split ring and work out the grunge by moving the clamping hand lever.....Again removal of that outer plate i would save as a last resort...

Cheers Ross

Ross,

I don't want to take the spindle out of the quill, I just thought I needed to. I figured it would be a bad idea to apply high thrust loads through the spindle bearings, so I was trying to apply loads directly to the quill.

Here is a picture of what I think you are suggesting. It looks like I will have to downsize to 1/2" threaded rod which should be just fine. Flickr: Page Not Found
Do I understand correctly?

This quill is quite stuck, would you be worried about damaging the thrust bearings using this method?

I will leave the ring/plate alone and do my best to clean out the clamp once the quill is out.

Any suggestions on cleaner? Does anyone second using PB B'laster?

If I get the quill out and clean everything, do you expect it will be difficult to reinstall?

bdsmith21 said:

Any suggestions on cleaner? Does anyone second using PB B'laster?

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PB Blaster is not a cleaner, it's a penetrating oil. I use kerosene/diesel for cleaning unpainted metal parts myself, not sure what Ross uses. I don't use kerosene on anything I would need to paint as it leaves an oily finish that wouldn't be good for paint to adhere to.

Hi Brian,

bdsmith21 said:

I don't want to take the spindle out of the quill, I just thought I needed to. I figured it would be a bad idea to apply high thrust loads through the spindle bearings, so I was trying to apply loads directly to the quill.

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I also would have thought that, but Ross knows these machines extremely well, and has good judgement. Probably those thrust bearings are designed at least for dynamic loads in the thousands of Newtons.

On the other hand if it were my machine and the quill didn't pull out fairly easily (meaning max a few hundred pounds force on the threaded rod) I would go to plan b (remove the spindle and pull directly on the quill) just to avoid any possible damage to the bearings and bearing surfaces.

Cheers,
Bruce

PS: it looks as if the green paint on your machine was applied by the same bozos who slabbered it all over my (formerly) nice grey FP2.

I agree with the above...got to use good mechanical judgement in doing this stuff................
Cheers Ross

I thought about this a bit and have decided the quill is so tight that removing it in a way that presses on the thrust bearings would be a bad idea. I also think removing the spindle from the quill while it is assembled in the machine would be difficult. The spindle retaining nut is basically inaccessible at this time (the quill is in the fully extended position). I decided to purchase an 80 mm ID hub adapter style clamp and use this to grip the outside of the quill and pull it out using 4 M10 x 120mm long bolts threaded through the clamp. I will have to manufacture a ring to go around the clamp as it is designed to fit between a hub and a shaft. Without the ring, when tightened the clamp would expand and not grip the shaft.

See picture Flickr: Page Not Found

bdsmith21 said:

I thought about this a bit and have decided the quill is so tight that removing it in a way that presses on the thrust bearings would be a bad idea.

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Yes, I would agree, and what Ross was mentioning about mechanical judgment.

I think you may need to try and get some penetrating oil inside the spindle, however, if the spindle is galled because of running without oil, you could be in for a fruitless task without at least some force.

I would try the penetrating oil first, if it was mine.

I just shot PB B'laster into the lock handle hole, bolt holes at the front of the headstock, and around the spindle. I'm getting a bit of rust colored runoff. I will keep applying once or twice a day until my clamp is ready to use.

bdsmith21 said:

I just shot PB B'laster into the lock handle hole, bolt holes at the front of the headstock, and around the spindle. I'm getting a bit of rust colored runoff. I will keep applying once or twice a day until my clamp is ready to use.

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It is doing something!

I would keep doing that every few hours and see if it doesn't allow the spindle to start moving at all. Eventually it will break down the rust. If you're lucky it is all from coolant and is rusted, rather than galled from running dry.

bdsmith21 said:

I decided to purchase an 80 mm ID hub adapter style clamp and use this to grip the outside of the quill and pull it out using 4 M10 x 120mm long bolts threaded through the clamp. I will have to manufacture a ring to go around the clamp as it is designed to fit between a hub and a shaft.

Click to expand...

This seems like a good approach. When you are finished, mail your clamp to Thanos in Greece and he can use it to pull out his horizontal spindle.

Cheers,
Bruce

traditional-tools said:

I think you may need to try and get some penetrating oil inside the spindle

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Alan: you meant to write "quill" not "spindle".

ballen said:

This seems like a good approach. When you are finished, mail your clamp to Thanos in Greece and he can use it to pull out his horizontal spindle.

Cheers,
Bruce

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hope I'll have made it by then, but don't bet on it...

Added 2 cents worth.....

First off the quill would have to be pretty stuck to require enough force to damage the thrust bearings....That said....I would not , repeat not clamp on the OD of the quill.
That would be my last choice....If this goes badly and the clamp slips,or if the pressure to clamp and hold distorts the quill and by association the bearing races ,this damage to the precision surfaces could be a huge problem...No easy repair solutions here if it goes badly....

Pulling directly on the thrust bearing the worst case is that one of the races and the balls are damaged (doubt that) These are readily available off the shelf parts....and easily replaced...may need replacement anyhow.

But if you are nervous about the thrust bearing approach...suggest you explore removal through pushing on the rear end of the quill....Using leverage and a fulcrum through the top of the slide......Pushing against the rear face of the quill. If the quill has moved forward so that the end is not accessible, fabricate some rings of sleeves to space out the rear so that you can push against..the sleeves can th cut into two half's so that inserting them
behind the quill is possible....Male the sleeve a bit smaller than the OD of the quill and keep it in place using radiator hose clamp or tie wraps.
Cheers Ross

ballen said:

Alan: you meant to write "quill" not "spindle".

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Yeah, between quill and spindle. Needs to get some penetrating oil into all of those parts, one drop at a time if that is what it takes!

BTW, probably easier if the machine was laying down, so that the oil would drip down into and around the spindle by gravity. Still, should flow inside when it's upright, just slower.