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  1. #21
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    Thanks Thanos! I'm super excited to receive the RTM-3 and delve into it. I nearly bought a Riken lathe as well (kinda like a Hardinge LVL-H or Leinen/Weiler 140 size), but in the end I'm very satisfied with the mill. One question remains as far as compatibility with FP-2 accessories, and that is whether the main drive gear tooth angle is the same or whether Riken may have changed it - a piece of info I have not been able to ascertain otherwise. If the gear tooth interface is the same then I'll be looking for a fine boring head. If not, a high-speed head. Would like a 6000rpm option, one way or another....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hall View Post
    That's an interesting piece of information in regards to later type Deckel square head, allowing for easy use of the horizontal spindle without need to remove the head. Is the main difference between the later Deckel head and the earlier one then all about the connection, presumably hinged(?), between the milling head and its support arm? If one had a 1985 Deckel head with attached support arm, would the assembly slide right onto an earlier model?

    And, if you were looking at a decent condition Deckel FP2, with a good range of tooling and accessories, for a good price, would you pass on buying simply because it lacked the later model square head?

    The later "square head" manual machines do not use an arm to move the vertical head. Rather the entire top of the "Y" slide becomes a connection dovetail. Flat to the horizon (no step like earlier versions)
    The advantage here is that the position of the upper vertical head dovetail can be positioned anywhere along the top of that slide, giving a much extended reach (if needed) to the vertical head. Further the vertical head can be
    unclamped and moved to the rear enough to expose the mounting dovetail, and gear drives so that accessories can be mounted, leaving the vertical head assembly intact to the rear.
    The later setup gives much higher flexibility to the vertical head.

    Additional advances were made in the draw bar for the horizontal. The square head setup brings the nut for the draw bar out the rear of the "Y" ram removing it from the shrouded well as on the earlier machines.
    Makes removal of tools on the horizontal much easier.

    Seen below , foreground is an FP4NC running horizontal....(first gen FP-NC's have the vertical head setup same as he late manual machines)
    In the background is the manual version (FP3) set to run horizontal...upper vertical support casting pulled to the rear. Vertical head swiveled to the side . Cover plate inserted to cover open dovetails and
    gear train. Vertical moved further to the rear for fitting accessories......

    To answer your question about purchase of a machine (non square head) , yes i would consider it. (i do own a first gen FP2 after all) , but i would find it a negative, the remaining points of an early machine (condition and tooling) would need to be very strong to get me to move in that direction.....
    Having used both styles i definitely prefer the square style.



    Cheers Ross

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    A few more, just for fun.

    Shot of the rear of my FP3. Can see the drawbar nut at the rear of the "Y" ram (Allen socket takes 10mm allen key like the vertical head protractor bolts)
    Rear bellows protects the ways from dirt and swarf. Later versions use a segmented cover plate..(.aluminum bars with rubber joints between the bars)



    Here is a better shot of the FP-NC setup running horizontal...(same as the square head manuals)



    And just for fun...FP4NC running with the FP2/FP3 riser and the precision boring head. FP-NC's accept all the manual machine accessories. FP2NC accepts the FP1 accessories, while the larger NC's take the FP2/FP3
    driven accessories.
    Note the bent sheet aluminum placed between the riser and the vertical head to cover the gears and keep the oil inside....



    Cheers Ross.

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  5. #24
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    Jeez, I was hoping not to drool on my keyboard today. That's over now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hall View Post
    That's an interesting piece of information in regards to later type Deckel square head, allowing for easy use of the horizontal spindle without need to remove the head. Is the main difference between the later Deckel head and the earlier one then all about the connection, presumably hinged(?), between the milling head and its support arm? If one had a 1985 Deckel head with attached support arm, would the assembly slide right onto an earlier model?

    And, if you were looking at a decent condition Deckel FP2, with a good range of tooling and accessories, for a good price, would you pass on buying simply because it lacked the later model square head?
    For me, that's not an easy question to answer. The FP2 long reach head is a very close alternative to the square-head enhanced functionality:
    - you can use the horizontal 90% of the times without even touching the vertical, since it seats up high.
    - you can swivel and push it back to work horizontally with a large cutter or large part
    - you can use it as overarm
    - you cannot (afaik) push it back and make room to fit accessories. You have to remove it in order to put another head on.

    Plus, first gen FP2 has an extra 100 mm on X.

    I guess, one of the main advantages of the square-head models is their condition. They can be up to more than 20 years younger than an older model, so they have more chances to be in better condition. Plus, they have the active (not all) and variable feed features which, I guess, are very nice to have. (any many other improvements of course).

    But if I were offered an 500mm X FP2 and a square head FP2 in the same condition (if this could ever be determined, that's a theoretical assumption), given the price tag the square models carry, I think I'd be more than happy with the older lady.

    BR,
    Thanos

    ps. an Aktiv FP3 solves all the above, just have to locate one that costs less than an appartment

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    If I had the physical room, not to mention the money, for an FP3 or FP4, most especially an FP4MK, then I would have gone in that direction. As it is, the biggest machine I can squeeze in is FP2-sized one.

    Those long-reach FP2 heads are no exactly common to come across, are they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hall View Post
    Those long-reach FP2 heads are no exactly common to come across, are they?
    They do turn up on German Ebay, from time to time. Franz Singer has one here, but it's very expensive:
    FP2 verschiebbarer Fraskopf Nr.2013-4080 teiluberholt fur Deckel Frasmaschine | eBay

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hall View Post
    If I had the physical room, not to mention the money, for an FP3 or FP4, most especially an FP4MK, then I would have gone in that direction. As it is, the biggest machine I can squeeze in is FP2-sized one.

    Those long-reach FP2 heads are no exactly common to come across, are they?
    I think that, though an FP3 isn't much larger, exactly the 'push head backwards to fit accessory' feature demands some extra space at the back. So, it will need more space indeed.

    Long-reach FP2 heads are not that rare, it seems they were very popular. I've seen many machines with such heads.
    Some people here don't like them much, but these certain people have a couple of extra Deckels . If you can only have one FP2, I'd go for the long-reach without blinking.

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Not a big fan of the long reach head setup.
    Nice that it gives longer "Y" travels and positioning....which is a plus.
    But...... i am not a fan of the extra weight hanging on the relatively short "Y" axis ways. Makes the "Y" action heavy and will promote quicker way wear.
    Access to the horizontal draw bar is impaired....makes rapid tool changes on the horizontal pretty impossible if using the standard Deckel direct mounted collets.. Solution of course is some form of front collet closer...
    The factory did offer one, and they are pretty nice.
    The locating and clamping of the head seems a bit sketchy to me as well....
    Owned one in the past and i sold it to a member on this board, i prefer the standard vertical head setup if going with the early machine....Its just a preference.
    To be sure the later square head machines are a much better design...lots of additional changes besides the vertical head mounting setup. (wider way support for the "X" axis, real one shot oil setup with feed checks,real way wipers on the "Y" slide,higher spindle speed (2500) easier access to horizontal draw bar, easier access to cleaning of the coolant sump, single "Vee" way gib setup on the "X" axis slide, spindle brake....both draw bars use 10mm Allen key to tighten /loosen (no square end wrench) Same Allen key operates the vertical quill hand feed quick index for vertical tram (the long reach head has this as well)....the list goes on)
    They do command higher prices, but in my view well worth the extra.
    Of course any FP2 is better than not....
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    They do turn up on German Ebay, from time to time. Franz Singer has one here, but it's very expensive:
    FP2 verschiebbarer Fraskopf Nr.2013-4080 teiluberholt fur Deckel Frasmaschine | eBay
    What is it specifically in that ad that tells you is the long reach head? The part number?

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    There are those machines which represent pinnacles of design, 'best-of type', and then there are those machines which can be found on the market when you are looking to buy one, and how long you might be prepared to wait in the meantime.

    Ross, how many machines do you think Deckel made of the later type with square head? What years are we talking about? Late 1980s?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hall View Post
    What is it specifically in that ad that tells you is the long reach head? The part number?
    It's long! Can't really confuse it with the regular one....

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    Yes that is the long reach head. The regular vertical head is visibly shorter and has a little humpback shape to its top, this one is long and straight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Not a big fan of the long reach head setup.
    Nice that it gives longer "Y" travels and positioning....which is a plus.
    But...... i am not a fan of the extra weight hanging on the relatively short "Y" axis ways. Makes the "Y" action heavy and will promote quicker way wear.
    Access to the horizontal draw bar is impaired....makes rapid tool changes on the horizontal pretty impossible if using the standard Deckel direct mounted collets.. Solution of course is some form of front collet closer...
    The factory did offer one, and they are pretty nice.
    The locating and clamping of the head seems a bit sketchy to me as well....
    Owned one in the past and i sold it to a member on this board, i prefer the standard vertical head setup if going with the early machine....Its just a preference.
    To be sure the later square head machines are a much better design...lots of additional changes besides the vertical head mounting setup. (wider way support for the "X" axis, real one shot oil setup with feed checks,real way wipers on the "Y" slide,higher spindle speed (2500) easier access to horizontal draw bar, easier access to cleaning of the coolant sump, single "Vee" way gib setup on the "X" axis slide, spindle brake....both draw bars use 10mm Allen key to tighten /loosen (no square end wrench) Same Allen key operates the vertical quill hand feed quick index for vertical tram (the long reach head has this as well)....the list goes on)
    They do command higher prices, but in my view well worth the extra.
    Of course any FP2 is better than not....
    Cheers Ross
    Hey Ross,

    agreed on all the above (and of course on the square-head model improvements, some are very important). I also don't like the way the long-reach is mounted and, also, I don't like how it looks (compared to the beautiful standard head).

    BUT, I think your opinion is biased by the fact that you have more than one mills. My feeling is that, even with the drawbar limitations, long reach does make you considerably faster switching from vertical to horizontal, as many times needed for a task, compared to lifting and refitting the head all the time.
    However, this could be just my shop organization thing, others with a crane above the machine might find it easier to remove the standard head than messing with the long-reach head clamps...

    BR,
    Thanos

    Disclaimer: the above don't mean I wouldn't love a square head machine. If one has a bargain to offer, please don't consider I would prefer an older machine :P

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    I noticed something in the ebay ad. The long reach head has a front and rear clamp. On my machine there is only a clamp at the rear of the long reach head. I wonder if it's lost, or if there was a difference in desgn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hall View Post
    What is it specifically in that ad that tells you is the long reach head?
    The name/description "FP2 verschiebbarer Fraskopf", because

    FP2 = FP2
    verschiebbarer = adjustable or slidable
    Fräskopf = milling head

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    On my machine there is only a clamp at the rear of the long reach head.
    These clamps are a PITA. Probably the front one is missing from yours (I think I noted that in one of your photos a long time ago). Check underneath the front of your long reach head and see if there are two threaded holes there for the clamp to mount.

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    Starting to get a little more exciting, as I received pictures from the company looking after crating and export today:

    2-.jpg


    3-.jpg


    1-.jpg


    1-.jpg



    4-.jpg


    The two boxes add up to 2000kg.
    Last edited by Chris Hall; 02-20-2020 at 09:33 AM.


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