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Riken RTM-3

Chris Hall

Cast Iron
Joined
Feb 28, 2013
Location
Greenfield, MA
Another PM member has a Riken RTM-2, a made-under license Japanese copy of the Deckel FP1, and I was seriously looking to buy it for a good while before ultimately deciding that I preferred a larger work envelope. Riken also made a licensed copy of the Deckel FP-2 (the RTM-3), starting in 1959, and they continued in production until the mid-to late 1980s as far as I can determine. Several months back I started looking for an RTM-3 in Japan. Even though I read and write in Japanese, it was not too easy dealing with Japanese used machinery dealers, who generally had no interest in dealing with foreigners, but in the end I prevailed and located a few promising machines. The first of these that I dug into was a 1985 model in pristine condition, out of a technical college, and seemingly well-optioned:

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I think this was the last iteration of these machines in Japan. Compared to the earlier ones I have looked at, the cast base is boxier and there is a bulkier electrical cabinet on the back. Compared to earlier models that the coolant pump switch has been moved off of the lever and placed next to the row of operating switches.

1_xl.jpg

As you can see, besides the vise, there is a slotting head, high speed head, dividing head, and circular table, along with a universal table.

This was looking pretty good at one point, but I discovered eventually that the accessories were not quite as a good as they looked, and several key components were missing from certain accessories. So I kept looking.

These machines can hardly be described as abundant in Japan, or anywhere else. As per Danny Vanvorn's thread on his RTM-2, not too many Riken seem to have made it to the US. I've come across examples in Russia, Ireland, Australia and Korea though.

I finally located this one not too far from Tokyo:

IMG_2545.jpg

This one is from 1978. A fine vintage I do believe. I take the intact bellows as a good general sign. And, it comes with an accessory cabinet:

IMG_2548.jpg

There's lots of stuff inside that cabinet.

It also has 2-axes with glass scales and a DRO

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5 pic limit reached, but it is a start. I'm thinking that FP-2 owners out there might see a lot of interesting details on the RTM-3 which differ, and if so I'd be interested in such observations.

I did the bank transfer today, and expect to receive this machine by the middle of April. So exciting!
 
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I like the "wider" look of the later machine. Looks more robust, and perhaps may have longer "Y" travel having what looks like a deeper base.
Disappointing i think that at 1985 that they had not moved to copy the later Deckel designd Square head that eliminated the need to remove the vertical head to operate horizontal....Pity!

Earlier version is very 1st gen FP2 looking of what i can see in the snaps.
Nice find. I will be interested to hear your operational reports once its all here and running....
Cheers Ross
 
I guess with licenced designs they are stuck with the generation they licence and would have to renew the agreement for any major updates?
 
Time for the next round of pics

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I like that it has a hand-operated central lube pump so I don't have to worry about the problem many Deckel owners seem to have reported with previous owners mistakenly injecting grease into the oil fittings on their machines.

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The machine as it stands prior to shipment:


RTM-3.jpg

It comes with a Nikken milling chuck mounted. Those holes on the side of the baseplate are for putting steel rods through, in aid of lifting the machine. This is something I have seen on the Deckel FP-1, but the FP2s I have seen don't have the holes for the rods.
 
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I guess with licenced designs they are stuck with the generation they license and would have to renew the agreement for any major updates?

I don't know the answer for sure, however it is clear enough that Riken saw fit to make various changes/updates as it was, manifest obviously in the 1985-version shown above, to the design they started out with. I'm curious to learn about what other refinements or changes Riken might have made to the machine over the years. A lot of these will not come readily to light without disassembly of components and fine-toothed comb comparison. In that regard, I don't have an FP-2 to put the RTM-3 side by side with, put it that way. I do wonder about what issues cropped over the production span of this machine, if any, which drove those decisions to change/update? It will be interesting also to see what original FP-2 design aspects got 'fossilized' with the RTM-3. I wonder if there were any differences in terms of the requests made by the consumers of the machine in Japan or elsewhere it was exported that may have led them to make updates over the years?
 
I like the "wider" look of the later machine. Looks more robust, and perhaps may have longer "Y" travel having what looks like a deeper base.
Disappointing i think that at 1985 that they had not moved to copy the later Deckel designed Square head that eliminated the need to remove the vertical head to operate horizontal....Pity!

It's unknown the extents covered by whatever business arrangement Riken and Deckel had, but it seems like they did the initial duplication in 1959, and things went from there. There are some Deckel FP 1 and 2, and 4 to be found on the used Japanese machine market, so it seems like they were both available to the market.

Earlier version is very 1st gen FP2 looking of what i can see in the snaps.
Nice find. I will be interested to hear your operational reports once its all here and running....
Cheers Ross

Will do, thanks for the interest.

There was in fact an RTM-3(L) made which had 500mm x travel, like the early FP-2s did from what I understand . I have not come across any RTM-3L and the one pictured was not an 'L' model. Would be cool to find.
 
Happy to hear you found a machine that fits your needs. My experience with the RTM 2 was positive and wouldn’t expect any less on a RTM 3, top notch quality.

Dan, it was your positive assessment of your RTM-2, given that you also have Deckel mills, that led me to consider Riken more seriously. Did you, BTW, manage to sell your RTM-2? It was one of the nicer examples I have come across.
 
More pics to share, in case it is of interest to anyone. The cabinet contains a few goodies:

A Kuroda boring/facing head. These are based on the Wohlaupter:

IMG_2558.jpg

A circular table with dividing plate - just one small tool scar:

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A bit of miscellany in this drawer:

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A decent looking range of collets, all made by Riken:

IMG_2551.jpg

A few tool holders, both for vertical head and horizontal milling:

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Happy to hear you found a machine that fits your needs. My experience with the RTM 2 was positive and wouldn’t expect any less on a RTM 3, top notch quality.

I have a RTM 2, and providing Danny still has his that's 2, and with the new owner of the RTM 3, am thinking we now comprise a RTM "community" LOL


And..to the new owner of the -3. Looks like a great machine and am looking forward to updated reports.
 
I have a RTM 2, and providing Danny still has his that's 2, and with the new owner of the RTM 3, am thinking we now comprise a RTM "community" LOL


And..to the new owner of the -3. Looks like a great machine and am looking forward to updated reports.

Just an FYI, I did get in contact with Riken, and they can still supply most parts for these mills (size 2 and 3 - there was also an RTM-1mind you), and will even make new parts from scratch if required.
 
That's great, which dealer did you find to be cooperative?

Well although he stated several times to the intermediary I employed, that he did not want to deal with a foreigner under any circumstances, the fellow whom I dealt with, named Kikuchi, was able to eventually come through with a good number of photos. He is elderly though, so a request for video of the machine running proved to be a bridge too far. I hope at least at the end he came out feeling better about the whole thing, as I did buy the machine after indicating I would do so. The process took several months.
 
More pics perhaps?

IMG_2747.jpg

For some reason, the previous owner had obtained three different centering microscopes. I'll be looking to sell 1 or 2 of them:

IMG_2561.jpg

The universal table

IMG_2562.jpg

The slotting head has a little corrosion at the top:

IMG_2564.jpg

There is also a box with around 10 slotting chisels included.

This shot gives a decent overview of the lower half of the cabinet and its more significant contents. The factory operation manual is in the binder. It will be in Japanese of course. I feel like this machine came decently well optioned:

shelf inside.jpg
 
I find this all interesting and a bit curious.
Its obvious that this purchase was not without difficulties. Wondering what was the overrunning motivation to acquire this mark.
A bit less known, fewer units in play i will wager and not without some unknowns....
Owning "unique" is legit, but rare usually comes with pay back or trade off's....Items tend to capture a market share and niche by their performance....
No judgements , just curious.

Cheers Ross
 
I find this all interesting and a bit curious.
Its obvious that this purchase was not without difficulties. Wondering what was the overrunning motivation to acquire this mark.
A bit less known, fewer units in play i will wager and not without some unknowns....
Owning "unique" is legit, but rare usually comes with pay back or trade off's....Items tend to capture a market share and niche by their performance....
No judgements , just curious.

Cheers Ross

That's a very good question and I'm glad you asked it Ross. I wasn't after the RTM-3 so much out of a wish to have something unique. 'Unique' as such is not something that floats my boat, and there are drawbacks and uncertainties associating to things in that category, as you note. I can say that I was looking for an FP-2 for a good long while. I found super nice ones which were out of my price range, I found ancient ones, ones with parts missing, most with just a few accessories. I found newer ones I found cheaper ones and I found ones which fit my budget. I looked at loads of FP-2s in Europe, chewing over various approaches to dealing with the 400v. issue, and a few mills also in North America, where some have oddball voltage issues to deal with as well . But I didn't pick any of them, though it is likely the ideal FP-2 is out there somewhere for me. I do not have the luxury of waiting years to see when one pops up.
There were a few key moments in the process for me which tipped things towards the Riken over the FP-2. For starters, I am 100% sure that the quality of the Riken RTM-3 will be every bit as good as the Deckel product.

Second, I wanted to find a mill with clean original condition, without evidencing much in the way of maladroit handling over its lifetime. I mean, wanting clean, original paint, paint not all eaten away by coolant, no attempt to tart it up by giving it a quick spray with the rattle can along with work table surfaces that are not peppered with hits from cutters, and so forth. That kind of stuff ruled out a bunch of the cheaper FP-2s that I came across in my price range.
Third,

As you move to the 1970s Deckel mills start to add on these giant electrical cabinets and early forms of controllers, then screens. I'm aware of the advantages that accrue to those systems, but on a 40-year old machine with old electronics...well, I've certainly read of enough challenges, and they aren't challenges I have any interest in taking on. Electronics and the kind of problems that come with them are just not my bag frankly. It's not stuff I want to deal with. And reading threads here lets me have some idea how many folks out there with Deckel mills from the 1970shave battles with the older controls.

I like that the Riken is, essentially, an anachronistic FP-2. and yet it comes from 1978, while Deckel FP-2's from 1978 are in fact a bit thin on the ground themselves. Seems like the FP-2 ended production around 1980, correct me if I am wrong.

Riken made no moves at all in the direction of NC systems on these machines during the 25 or 30 years that they were produced, they are relentlessly manual machines. I like that. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to have a DRO on the machine, even if only 2-axis at present. That's about as electronick-y as I wish to get though.

Riken kept the electrical stuff on the simpler side with these machines. There's no secondary electrical cabinet. I understand the advantages that cabinet provides the FP-2, etc., in terms of the convenient and safe connection of accessories, however Riken's approach to the same problem was to provide those accessory connection terminals on the back of the machine.

4th, accessories are what broaden the ways in which an FP-2 or RTM-3 can be used, and the machine I found came with a decent assortment of accessories.

5th.
I have concluded that dealing with the electrical situation is going to be easier with this 200v. 50 hz machine than were I to import a 400v. 50hz FP2 from Europe. This is just given my shop set up and what I can bring to bear on the situation.

6th was price. If I were to put this side by side with an FP-2 in equivalent condition, with a similar complement of accessories and tooling, I know I come out far ahead with the RTM-3.

7. The cost for shipping from Japan to Boston was surprisingly reasonable.

8. I don't have every Riken accessory for the RTM-3, and the chances of finding further accessories is definitely on the thinner side, so you might think that might give me pause. However, in scouring the globe for info on Riken's mill, one of the few places I found them discussed at all was on Russian metalworking internet forums. Seems like there are few owners there who own or have run both FP-2s and RTM-3s, A couple of different participants on those forums, in separate discussions, stated that the accessories were interchangeable between the FP-2 and RTM-3.

While of course I have to take that info with a grain of salt, I did discover that, with something like the horizontal milling overarm, the dimensions - I mean ALL dimensions on the Riken part - are identical to the numbers I found spec'd for the Deckel component. Length the same, dovetail the same. So, I've got a strong hunch that I will be able to mount FP-2 accessories on the RTM-3. Worst case is that such proves to be wrong, and I simply end up with a mill short an accessory I might otherwise like. I can live with that.

9. Riken will still support this machine with parts.

10. It accepts stock Deckel tooling which is not hard to find.

Well, that took a bit longer to write than planned, but go figure. I hope it helped explain how I came to make the choice I did.
 
Disappointing i think that at 1985 that they had not moved to copy the later Deckel designed Square head that eliminated the need to remove the vertical head to operate horizontal....Pity!

That's an interesting piece of information in regards to later type Deckel square head, allowing for easy use of the horizontal spindle without need to remove the head. Is the main difference between the later Deckel head and the earlier one then all about the connection, presumably hinged(?), between the milling head and its support arm? If one had a 1985 Deckel head with attached support arm, would the assembly slide right onto an earlier model?

And, if you were looking at a decent condition Deckel FP2, with a good range of tooling and accessories, for a good price, would you pass on buying simply because it lacked the later model square head?
 
I have a RTM 2, and providing Danny still has his that's 2, and with the new owner of the RTM 3, am thinking we now comprise a RTM "community" LOL


And..to the new owner of the -3. Looks like a great machine and am looking forward to updated reports.

I'd love to see pictures of your RTM-2, and feel free to post them on this thread if you are willing.
 
I have a few pics yet. The Nikken milling chuck is installed in the machine currently, so I am not sure which size it is, however it came in a boxed set with a few collets:


.collet box.jpg


collet 2.jpg

It seems that these collets are available to purchase readily enough, in inch sizes as well. Everything, for the machine, to the cabinet, to each accessory gets a Riken data plate:

IMG_2546.jpg


The cabinet map. Funny enough, most of the terms used in the list are from English, though the term for 'milling machine' in Japanese derives from German otherwise:

attachment list.jpg

shelf 2.jpg

You can see the box of slotting cutters sitting on the middle black case. I have no idea what the item in the lower right of the cabinet is - guess I'll find out soon enough. My import brokerage costs for this purchase look to be around $500 at this point.There are still some trucking costs to deal with once it gets to port.
 
You got a nice machine Chris!

And the best part is that there seem to be many things to discover when it reaches you. Happy days...

BR,
Thanos
 








 
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