(sigh) Yet another Deckel ad we might as well get used to

Milacron · May 24, 2008

AB has another one priced high enough (for what it is...1st gen, straight table, no major tooling with it, etc) that we'll be seeing the ad for the rest of our lives....at least it's reasonably pleasant to look at, unlike the decrepite looking FP2's that keep popping up..

http://cgi.ebay.com/DECKEL-FP2-UNIV...ryZ12584QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Kees · May 24, 2008

It seems like machine-dealers are asking always too much money for their machines...

Milacron · May 24, 2008

Kees said:
It seems like machine-dealers are asking always too much money for their machines...

I disagree.... many (USA) dealers are quite reasonable and sometimes, as they are unfamiliar with them, sell Deckel mills lower than they could have, actually. Even the large dealer Machinery Values has sold Deckel mills for less than market value.

But AB is a special case.... never ceases to amaze me how someone so clueless about European machine tools and their values keeps getting so many of them. They must just fall in his lap due to his association with the jewelry machine business.

Having said that, at $12,500...if that is original paint and condition is outstanding...the price is not outrageous really...not exactly Mike Kandu La La Land territory...but just high enough that the ad will never go away.

Kees · May 24, 2008

I don't follow the market in the USA, but here in Europe prices for conventional millers like Deckel, Schaublin, Thiel etc. are quit high in my opinion.
This Deckel with the current Euro/Dollar ratio would be around 8000 euro, in line with the prices here I think.

Some dealers I know have sometimes machines in store for many years (sometimes more than 10 years) and they just don't care.

BobWelland · May 24, 2008

Too bad you can't teach some dealers about the "time value of money." You have to give Reliable credit for figuring that one out.

Cheers,
Bob Welland

Spud · May 25, 2008

Milacron said:
Having said that, at $12,500...if that is original paint and condition is outstanding...the price is not outrageous really...not exactly Mike Kandu La La Land territory...but just high enough that the ad will never go away.

Funny you mention how AB is not as dreamland territory as Kandu, as I was thinking the exact same thing 1-2 days ago when I saw AB list a Schaublin 102 cross-slide for $950. It looks decent enough but too high for me. Kandu has 1 also but it is in worse condition and $50 higher. Kandu has had this in his Ebay store for a looong time.

sneebot · May 26, 2008

I sold this machine on ebay a few months back and AB Machinery was the winning bidder. I was careful in the ad to note and show some damage on the Y-axis ram dovetail. AB machine has just as carefully left this information out of the current ad. Machine served me quite well for 7+ years but I don't think it's worth close to 12.5K.

Milacron · May 26, 2008

Thanks for that info snee. Amazing that AB was willing to pay the freight and customs to Canada just as a resale item. Interesting also that he is actively seeking Deckel mills and it's not just a case of them falling into his lap.

skygrip · May 27, 2008

The real thing

Hi, Am new to this chat room, am looking to buy a DEKEL FP2 this week,

The AB machine look good but only on top,the machine is not in very good condition on the inside,
i have make it work today, and its not very good condition .

The gear box, have been push very hard, it sound like, it was on a production jod and have work very hard for many years, the power feed does not engage when you push the power feed, you should hear the nose ,,, not good.

To me the price, is way to high considering the search i have done, on the internet,but may be you can guide me on this,

Go and see it,,,, you will be disapoint, i was Today.

Milacron · May 27, 2008

sky, there is another FP2 in the northwest USA for sale that is much better and for a little less money. It is second generation FP2 (AB's is first generation) and has desirable tilt swivel table (the larger size one, sometimes seen on FP3's) and long range head. Condition is excellent (I used to own it). Check the Seattle, WA Craigs list for the ad.

sneebot · May 27, 2008

Huh, that description does not seem right. The power feeds on the AB machine worked flawlessly when it left the US.

AlfaGTA · May 27, 2008

Perhaps the power feed does not engage because the trip stops are hitting the feed trip.....will cause this exact trouble, or perhaps the main motor is running in reverse...will also make the feed unusable and noisy to engage.
Cheers Ross

AlfaGTA · May 27, 2008

That second FP2 looks to have an FP3 table (FP3 has 5 vertical table slots)....not enough "T's" to mount all the bolts. Not a real problem i suppose, just a bit heavy for a "2".
That looks to be the same table base i have on my FP3.
Cheers Ross

Milacron · May 27, 2008

AlfaGTA said:
, or perhaps the main motor is running in reverse...will also make the feed unusable and noisy to engage.

I'll bet that's what it was...suspect neither sky nor AB had enough experience with Deckels to know you can't run the gear driven feed machines in reverse and have the feed engage properly.

Milacron · May 27, 2008

AlfaGTA said:
That second FP2 looks to have an FP3 table (FP3 has 5 vertical table slots)....not enough "T's" to mount all the bolts. Not a real problem i suppose, just a bit heavy for a "2".
That looks to be the same table base i have on my FP3.
Cheers Ross

Seeing as the final generation FP2's were identical to the FP3 except for axis travels...just how different were the second generation FP2's to an FP3 of that era in terms of actual physical size and rigidity ? Was there any difference at all in the size and width of the Z axis ways of an early 1970's FP2 and FP3, for example ? I presume by your T slot mention, that the table mount surface was a little "taller" on the FP3...but I wonder by how much ?

Regardless, to say that table looks "a bit heavy" for an FP2 seems silly when one compares that to Sean's FP3 with universal table normally seen on FP4NC machines. If that FP2 tilt swivel table looks "a bit heavy" for the machine, then Seans FP3 universal table is "a bloated mass"

(having said that, the ultimate "bit heavy" is you know who's in CA, FP3 with the FP4 rotary tilt swivel table that is so huge I'd be afraid to put 200 lbs on it for fear the mill would topple over !! :eek:

)

sneebot · May 27, 2008

The column (ie main casting) of the FP2 and FP3 look to be identical in size-- vertical box ways are the same dimensions, vertical bellows are the same part, depth front to back (and hence engagement of Y axis on main casting) is exactly the same between the two machines. Z axis travel is smaller on the FP3 because of extra saddle height-- part of which gives the extra t-slot on the late model FP3.

The FP4 rotary tilt swivel (in CA) has got to be approaching limit for weight on z-axis of the FP3. The table alone weighs 1000#.

AlfaGTA · May 27, 2008

What Matt says plus the FP3 i believe has a wider vertical slide casting that gives a wider base support to the table to help support the "X" moves.
Other differences between the "3" and the first and second gen FP2 is the use of the feed drive rod to transmit the power to the "X" axis screw through gears so the screw does not have a slot that can cause wear problems.

Cheers Ross

toolmaker123 · May 29, 2008

Price

This machine does look beautiful. What is a fair price to offer?

Sean S · May 29, 2008

....when one compares that to Sean's FP3 with universal table normally seen on FP4NC machines.

Don't know where it is "normally seen", but I am using the proper table (of course)...

Sean

Milacron · May 29, 2008

Sean S said:
Don't know where it is "normally seen", but I am using the proper table (of course)...

Sean

Re the catalog page.... isn't that the same "small" universal table that Ross and I have on our final generation FP2A/NC's ? I thought your's was the larger one ? Our were there *3* different sizes of these things ? (not counting the older FP4 style which had no encoder)

(sigh) Yet another Deckel ad we might as well get used to

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