Thiel 159 duplex HELP! Power Feed Not Engaging - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Yep....made that suggestion in post #2 awhile back....glad you got it sorted out.
    Cheers Ross

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    Abene can have the same problem

    Peter

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    HI Ben
    did you find out what was the prob' with your Mill, as my 159 has all so stopped feed on XYZ, but the rapid works OK, I have the motor/power running the right way round,

    regards mike

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    Mike -

    A bit of history might help to work out what has gone wrong.

    How long have you had the Thiel?
    Did the feeds work correctly before on X,Y and Z?
    Have you done any maintenance work on the mill recently?
    Did you have any kind of crash before the feeds stopped working?
    Does it make any difference if the mill is hot or cold?

    And, not history

    If you engage a feed and then jog the rapid does the feed continue to work after you release the rapid button?
    Do all the axes behave in exactly the same way?

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    HI Bill

    thanks for the reply

    I have had the Mill for around a year now, I gave it a clean up on all the ways and a good oil, but it realy needs a strip down and proper clean, as it looks like it has just had 1 job in the Arospace for some time, it has lost it's Thiel ID and has been through a repaires/Re-con place some time in it's life, along the way all the gears/shafts in the head (attachment 7) have been removed, so there is no auto feed or manual fine feed.

    all the feeds worked when I got the mill and where also demo'd befor I picked it up

    I have been working on the mill between jobs to sort out small thinks that cropped up when on the last job, now have a facing job to do and the feeds have stopped?

    last job was boring out the inside of a bellhousing on a gearbox for clutch/flywheel/ring gear clearance, so no feed work as it was all manual and on the horizontal shaft with a boring head

    no crash with the mill or fed to the end of travel under power, it has all the stop's still fitted and not adjusted for more travel

    no change hot or cold, ran for 30sec or 10min it is still the same, only thing is when you move the feed lever it try's to move and then do's not

    I have tried the feed and run the fast forward, it just stops when the butten is released, all (XYZ) are the same, No slow only fast feed

    regards mike

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    Mike -

    You are absolutely positive that you have the motor rotation correct? The only way to check this properly is to take off the big Aluminium cover on the back of the mill and check that the motor rotation is correct as shown in the manual and possibly marked on the pulleys. The cover comes off easily but it has some weight. You can reverse the spindle through the gearbox, so the spindle rotation may seem correct and you will be able to use the mill manually, but the feeds will not work at all or will work incorrectly. The gearbox selector levers and marking do not make this especially obvious. Reversing the spindle rotation does not reverse the feeds for obvious reasons.

    While you have the cover off look at the inner smaller cover over the chain drive. There are 3 sprockets on this chain drive. The upper sprocket takes the drive from the motor. The next sprocket down is the normal input for the feed gearbox. The bottom and smallest sprocket is for the rapids clutch. Making sure that you are safe, start the mill and observe the ends of the shafts for the sprockets. You should see all three shafts rotating, the bottom shaft faster. (no rapids button).

    If you do these tests we can diagnose the problem a bit more clearly, perhaps with a few more tests.

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    HI BILL

    all shafts rotating (anti clockwise) no key's missing or shaft nuts/bolts, the fast feed works OK on all ways,

    thanks for the reply, I have had a look and investigated some more and removed the back cover, also the side cover for the gearbox's, I draind a small amount of oil from the bottom gearbox and it is not a thin oil, will need to change it and remove the side covers to have alook in the box's, as Magnus has kindly put up his photo's , I can see what I am getting into.

    the workshop temp' is cold, what I think is happening is the oil is to thick in the box's, any one know what today's oil Equivlant oil should go in there and I will see if I can find a supplyer, as the manual looks like it is a 5-6 weight oil??, I would take it as a mineral oil, any Idear on a make

    the motor is running correct way round (Anti-clock wise) as I removed the front cover to check the rotation of shaft under the bed and the lever engagement teeth when moved under power, I had tried again today to run the mill, it will feed if engaged and the fast is pressed it will carry on feeding, disconnect and tried again and no movement, only if the fast is pressed will it carry on, with the bed feed running the other 2 will work ok, stop everything and you might get one way on the bed?

    like to say thanks for the photos and link's, thay have been a help, as the Manual/Parts list I have is not that clear, the link to the working manual is a lot clear then the one I have, thanks again


    regards mike

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    Perhaps the electromagnetic clutch is bad
    First check for conductivity
    Then see if it gets the right voltage and if it is AC or DC
    If that is oke perhaps the gap is too big Try to set it thighter then
    Also there is a one way clutch involved IIRC The rapids travels faster overriding the normal feed by means of that one way clutch
    So it is correct that the feeds keep working when rapids fale

    Peter

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    I think the rapids clutch must be good because it engages and provides a solid rapid. There is an internal over-running clutch as well as the electromagnetic clutch. The over-running clutch is a possible source of your symptoms, but it appears to be working to some extent at least, because when you release the rapids button, the feed reverts back to its normal rate. This implies the engagement of the over-running clutch. I think what is happening is that the gears/dogs in the feed gearbox are not fully engaging. When you hit the rapids button, the sudden impulse through the gearbox is bringing them into mesh and they stay this way when you release the button. An alternative explanation is that there is some wear in the over-running clutch and this, coupled with the temperature and the oil viscosity is not allowing it engage consistently.

    The fact that the oil in the gearbox was too heavy and the machine was cold is significant. My 159 sometimes has difficulty fully engaging a feed when the oil is really cold (around zero). It works fine when warmed up a bit. This is why I asked the question about temperature. When cold, you can feel the slight heaviness of the gear selection through the handles. This goes away when warmed up.

    The correct oil for the gearboxes is a little bit unclear. The manual specifies the oil in 'Engler' 5-6 E/50degrees C. I think the oil I was supplied to this spec is too thick and it should actually be a lighter machine oil. Next time I change it I will try this. I suggest you do an oil change and cleanup and give it another test with the machine a little warmer. You can operate the mill with the feed door removed (see earlier topic) but it will throw oil everywhere. I would only try this if you still have an issue.

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    Don't know your specific machine,but my go to for a "light" machine oil is a good quality "AW" 46 hydraulic oil.
    The AW stands for "anti wear" Good for bearings and gears .
    In the Mobil product line which you should have in the UK ,it would be DTE 25......
    Its what i run in my manual lathes head stocks (gear head machines) my manual Deckels and the gearboxes and hydraulic system of my Deckel NC's.....
    Cheers Ross

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    I agree - that sounds about right, even if it isn't Engler 5 viscosity. There isn't anything in the feed gearbox that will come to serious harm with any of a very wide range of oils - It just needs something that has some lubricating and protective ant-rust capability.

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    HI Peter
    the Fast feed is working OK, just the slow, and now intermittently, with what looks like the Temp'/oil viscosity

    Ross
    thanks for the info on the oil, I will have a look today on what I can get/order in and change the oil in both gearbox's

    Bill
    I will strip out the covers on both boxs and see what I can find inside, also check the gear selection/positioning, looking at the parts manual and the last Photo that was posted on the link with the Arrow on to the large gear, looks like it has 2 rows of Ball bearings and poss' a set of roller's in the middle, which I take is the the drive/cam lock for the slow feed, as my Mill looks like it has had a neglected life and left in a corner of a shop for some time before I aquired it, it could be the oil/gum is not letting the rollers to slid/lock when engaged from the any of the lever's, I will check this when I have the covers off, I may pull the shaft out and check the rollers and the inside of the gear for wear, I will find some Oil first and get things ready for a W/E strip down and hope there is nothing more needed than a clean up and oil change, if the inside is the same as the out-side when I got the Mill it will need some cleaning inside

    thanks for the Info' and help

    regards mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB,159 View Post
    HI Peter

    I will strip out the covers on both boxs and see what I can find inside, also check the gear selection/positioning, looking at the parts manual and the last Photo that was posted on the link with the Arrow on to the large gear, looks like it has 2 rows of Ball bearings and poss' a set of roller's in the middle, which I take is the the drive/cam lock for the slow feed, as my Mill looks like it has had a neglected life and left in a corner of a shop for some time before I aquired it, it could be the oil/gum is not letting the rollers to slid/lock when engaged from the any of the lever's, I will check this when I have the covers off, I may pull the shaft out and check the rollers and the inside of the gear for wear, I will find some Oil first and get things ready for a W/E strip down and hope there is nothing more needed than a clean up and oil change, if the inside is the same as the out-side when I got the Mill it will need some cleaning inside
    regards mike
    Mike -

    It may be that you have the multi-lingual parts book with all the numbers, but if not:
    The Freewheel assembly complete (Freilauf, Vollst) is part number 159 1507
    The Freewheel clutch itself is: One way clutch, Stieber NFR25 (Freilauf Stieber NFR25), part number 49/0535
    It sits inside a spur gear, 65 teeth (Stirnrad, 65 Zahne) part number 159 1743

    It looks like Stieber is still in business and the NFR 25 is in their catalogue, so you should be able to buy a new one if necessary. Having worked with this type of clutch (but not Stieber) on other projects, you might need a stiff drink before you get the price.

    Type NFR | Built In Freewheel | Stieber Clutch

    The drawing in the parts book seems to show the clutch rollers running on the inside of the 65 tooth gear. However the Stieber catalogue shows that this type has an outer race which should be a n6 /H7 fit in its housing. Hopefully this is the case because if you need a new clutch you should be able to just fit it in the gear without having to worry about wear in the bore of the gear. If you get to this point, I would personally also replace the two bearings which flank the clutch. These are Rillenkugellager 16008 DIN 625, or Ball bearing 16008 Din 625. These are standard bearings and a decent quality bearing should cost less than GBP 15 each.

    Of course there are at least five other bearings on that shaft so you might want to do the lot while you are in there.

    Hopefully the problem is just dirt and old heavy oil, if in fact the problem is actually in that clutch.

    Apologies to German members for any spelling mistakes, missing accents etc.

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    HI
    thanks for the reply and info on the bearing/clutch ass',

    I have now had the covers off both the gearbox's and cleaned them out, the top one did have a fare amount of sludge in the bottom, I also took the reflector off the level sight and cleaned it to see the oil level better.

    the feed gearbox is not a clean case, the nice red in the box is now more black and will not shift, even with brake cleaner and a stiff soft brush, so cleaned it as clean as poss' , the oil thrower is (on the mill I have) further down the shaft than the Photos posted/linked, would you think it is a prob' or not in the correct position, this mill has been through a Re-con shop at some time ??, it may be fitted in the wrong place, or?

    also found out the oil level for both boxs is 4-4.5 Lt and not the 2 Lt for the feed box and 5 Lt for the main box.

    I have had the mill running, when cold the selection is notch'y and occasionaly will not drive unless the fast feed is pressed , once it has run for a bit the feed is better, the more it is run the better it seams to be on selection and feed movement, the more I have run it the better it is, also it is still cold hear, i think the oil has helped quite a bit, I will run it for a bit and change the oil, if I get across to Germany in July I will see about a new clutch bearing and pick one up if it do's not improve in the meen time.

    thanks once again for your advice and the photos

    regards mike

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    Mike -

    I'm not sure what could have turned the red paint black. Possibly they used an oil with some kind of additive that has stained the paint? Just simple straight 'hydraulic' oil without any special additives is what is needed. There are a few bronze bearings used in the selector mechanisms so an oil with a high sulpher content could possibly have attacked them, but I think you would have noticed this.

    The selector notchiness when cold sounds very much like mine. The ambient temperature makes a big difference. Thiel advertised these mills as useful for tool and die making of the highest precision. Being who they were, I guess they expected that they would be operated in a temperature controlled workshop at 20C exactly. Both the spindle gearbox and the feed gearbox may require the spindle to be jogged a bit manually to get gear engagement, but this is similar to many other mills.

    The oil thrower is just a couple of pieces of sheet steel fastened together. It picks up oil from the bottom of the gearbox and throws it around everywhere indiscriminately, so I don't think the postion on the shaft is all that critical, however there are a lot of gears in that gearbox and it has to miss them all regardless of the gear selected so I would not have thought that there is much room for alternative positions. If it was badly wrong you would certainly have heard it and the evidence would have been obvious when you opened the covers.

    The over-running clutch is still a possible explanation for your problems, alongside temperature and incorrect oil+dirt. I would try to eliminate the oil and dirt issue and wait until the weather gets a bit warmer before you investigate the clutch further. Possibly there is dirt and debris in the clutch housing itself - that would certainly make it reluctant to take up the drive unless it was first kicked through the elctromagnetic rapids clutch.

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    For readers who are not in the UK, a bit of explanation might be required re temperatures. Despite us being in May, the overnight temperatures in a lot of UK have often been below 0C until recently. I don't know where MikeB is located in UK but if his mill is in an unheated garage or workshop it would have got really cold at times.

    I have just started work again in the engine museum after the latest COVID shutdown. This is a largish old building with no heating of any kind (unless we get the boiler fired up to test the engines). I have only just stopped wearing double layers under overalls to keep warm enough to work, so it has been unusually cold here.

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    HI Bill
    thanks for the reply, having run the Thiel this last 2 days, it is just the cold start is a prob' selecting travel, once it has run (now for only 1min) it will select travel smoothly in all ways, it has been cold in the shop as it has no over-night heating, up hear in the Lake-District, we did have some snow on the tops last W/E,

    I have a Question about the selector shaft seals in the 2 gearbox covers, both have the seals fitted, in what I would say the wrong way round, as the lip and the spring are facing out, there is no oil leak, I will see if I can find a supply and change them next time I have the side plates off and fit them, what I would say the other way round with the lip/spring on the inside

    thanks again for the Info

    regards mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB,159 View Post
    I have a Question about the selector shaft seals in the 2 gearbox covers, both have the seals fitted, in what I would say the wrong way round, as the lip and the spring are facing out, there is no oil leak, I will see if I can find a supply and change them next time I have the side plates off and fit them, what I would say the other way round with the lip/spring on the inside
    I vaguely remember those seals and I have a feeling that mine were the same way round. I didn't replace them because they seemed still flexible. Most of the bearings and seals on this mill are standard sizes and easy to source. The exceptions are the spindle bearings which are rather special and very expensive. Replacing the seals is probably the wise thing to do, but I have had no leaks from there.

    Normally you would expect the garter spring to be on the side which is higher pressure. I don't think that matters too much in this case - there should not be any significant pressure difference and there may well be a vent passage somewhere in the top of the feed gearbox. The top, spindle gearbox simply cannot have any pressure in it because of the long gear that sits on the top face.

    The level of the gear oil is well below the seals (I think!) so all that is in that area is oil splash.

  25. #39
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    Those seals are there to prevent dirt to enter the gearbox Not holding the oil in
    So they are orientated the right way IMHO

    Peter

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  27. #40
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    Think Peter is correct...
    See this done in applications where dirt and coolant intrusion is a problem...often done on grinding machines...
    Cheers Ross


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