Trouble Starting Maho MH 800 C

My first Post in the wrong forum (but still relevant):

Hello, fellow machinists.
I have a 1991 Maho MH 800 C, and I'm having trouble getting it started. I've read through many of the posts and know of issues with starting the hydraulic pump motor. Here's my problem:
I turn on the main power to the machine. I then go to turn on the hydraulic pump, and it does not turn on. It will turn on while I depress the button, but it won't stay on.
I know of the process of starting the hydraulics: Press the button once, until the machine turns itself off, and then re-press the button and the Clear key to perform the final start-up. I've done this process over and over, but still the hydraulic motor won't stay on after the button is released.
Also, the drive which states the parameters (red button in middle with 4 arrow keys pointing the four directions) says, "No Power." I'm not sure why this is, since all has been wired seemingly correctly and done by a professional who doesn't know the problem, either.
Upon initial start-up, there's an Error 57 on the machine. I have read that this error means that a safety interlock is not engaged. I've checked all interlocks, and they're engaged. On the control, upon trying to start the machine, there are three errors: Error O23, M02, and I04.
Further, once the hydraulic start is pushed and the machine turns itself off, there's an Error 14 on the machine while I depress the button.
I do not have the error codes book--only the operator's and programming manuals, as well as a parts catalog and hydraulics/pneumatic schemes. I'm missing the electrical diagrams.
Any advice would be appreciated in this matter. I need to get this mill up and running.
Thank you.
Jack

Update:
I can now get the hydraulic pump to stay on for about 5 seconds. But after 5 seconds, it shuts off. On the machine, Error 05 or 14. (I don't know what these mean.) While the hydraulic pump is on, the drive which previously said "No Power" then says "Ref PT," which I know is the next step: to find the reference points in all the axis. But, of course, the drive returns to "No Power" once the pump is off.
The errors on the control are the same: O23, M02, I04.
Any help is appreciated.
Jack

I'm missing the electrical diagrams.

Click to expand...

You will need them. Aren't they inside of the electrical cabinet, in a pocket of the left door?

I still do have a chart for the error codes. These are for a Philips 432 V9. I have no idea wether they help for your control.
O23: Parameters out of range (You need to enter the machine constants)
M02: Checksum error tool offsets
I04: This one doesn't exist in my list. I-errors have to do with the interface.

But, of course, the drive returns to "No Power" once the pump is off.

Click to expand...

I do have a MH 700 C '82. I don't think they completely changed things.
The pump does not have to run, you just need pressure in the hydraulics. That's why it runs for a short moment (if at all) when powering up. The control even ignores wether there is enough pressure or not (according to MY diagram).

But if you press the hydraulics button, it bridges part of the E-stop chain. On MY machine that is:
NC-ready (your control has to be up and running and signal that)
Servo-amp has to be ready. What type do you have? Red light on on that servo amp?
Vertical axis is short circuited (works as a brake)
Spindle motor has power

If the control for the spindle does get the ready signal, things are simple. If not, there are 9 more fault conditions on MY mill, that prevent it from starting.

It won't power up, if one ore more servos are disconnected. This includes the B-axis if she is configured for it, but the axis is not connected (needs bridges).


HTH,
Nick

Thanks, Nick.
I will look into all you said and will report back tomorrow.
Jack

Hello, Nick.
Thank you for the codes.
I do not think it is an E Stop chain issue, since the machine powers up for about 5 seconds. The machine won't even think about turning on when an E Stop is pushed in. It is as if the hydraulics are sucking up too much electricity and a breaker is breaking (but no breaker is switched off). The machine clicks on and then clicks off after 5 seconds. Hydraulics are getting the pressure needed--same with the pneumatic system.
Once again, the drive which says "No Power" when off says "No RP" once on for the 5 seconds.
I checked all connections, and they're all secured well.
Same errors come up.
It's really hard to get a service guy to come to a small shop over here. We've been trying for the past month. I basically have to figure this out on my own without electrical diagrams. I have written to Deckel Maho for electrical diagrams but no response.
Any more suggestions as to where to go from here?
Thanks
Jack

You have no power to the spindle drive so the machine will not start up-- all drives must be up and running for the hydraulics to stay on. The spindle drive has multiple voltages going into it. If it is like mine it also has a 24V to 5V internal PCB mounted power supply. When putting power to the machine if the 24V to 5V supply is not working correctly the drive can display 'No Power'. It does have some power but the 5V supply powers a lot of the board level components I think.

The spindle drive should power up without/ before the hydraulics are on.

Do a web search for the part number of the Indramat (spindle) drive (KDA...) you should be able to pull up some documentation. In this you should be able to find the pin-out of the white multiwire cable/connectors daisy chaining the drives together. With this you can check to make sure you all the incoming voltages are present.

I can't remember but you may be able to test the rest of the machine without the spindle drive if you short out the BB circuit going through the drive (hydraulics might come up ect).

Thanks, Sneebot.
I will do you as you said today and report back.
Jack

Here's an update to my testing:
I checked all pin connections, and all are good. I found documentation on my model of spindle drive (KDA 3.2-150-3-AOS-w1), and all was connected correctly. I spoke to a tech at Indramat's drive servicers, and I was told to test to see whether the spindle drive was getting the DC bus voltage (300v) from the power supply. It was getting the voltage.
The tech told me that, since it was getting the voltage, the problem was with the spindle drive and that I need to send it in to have it fixed at a cost of almost $9,000.
Sneebot, you said the spindle drive has many voltages coming into it--so the 24v to 5v internal PCB gets these voltages from the control, right, and not from the DC bus bar?
I think the 24v to 5v is my last chance before having to spend $9,000 on fixing the drive. Does anyone know how to test whether this internal PCB is functioning correctly?
And I will soon be purchasing the electrical diagrams for this machine (Maho MH 800 C) and will surely scan and share them with anyone with similar problems with this machine, since the cost is high.
Thanks again for the help!
Jack

You would need to pull the drive out of the machine. Take the right hand sheet metal cover off the drive. There are a bunch of daughter boards but the main large PCB you see after opening the drive is where the power supply is located. If you can get an image of this I'm sure I could point it out-- it'll be one of the larger components on the board.

Your drive is (if I remember correctly) the next size up from mine (KDA 3.2-100...)

The 300V come in on the bus bars bridging all the drives. 24V and any other voltages are coming in on the connector/ wires bridging the drives below this (bunch of white wires (12 maybe), I think one black wire at the top or bottom. You should check the voltages coming in on these compared with the literature on the drive you found (before pulling the drive as this may be the problem).

There are a couple of options for testing the internal supply once you have the drive open-- depending on what equipment you have available. If you have a 24 Supply you can directly power the internal supply and see if you can measure 5V on the output. If not you can connect some jumpers to the supply output, thread them out the drive, reinstall, power up and measure.

The tech told me that, since it was getting the voltage, the problem was with the spindle drive and that I need to send it in to have it fixed at a cost of almost $9,000.

Click to expand...

Hahaha!
You don't even know wether the servo amp does get all enable signals (I bet no, as you can't start the control).

I think the 24v to 5v is my last chance before having to spend $9,000 on fixing the drive.

Click to expand...

Don't have a KDA. but I bet that if you open it, there will be test points for the voltages with the expected voltage indicated. Try to get a manual for the KDA.

And I will soon be purchasing the electrical diagrams for this machine (Maho MH 800 C) and will surely scan and share them with anyone with similar problems with this machine, since the cost is high.

Click to expand...

You need the diagram specific for your machine with your serial number. The next one already might have a different wiring. So that is quite useless.

Nick

Hello Guys,

You sure have jumped to a lot of really expensive conclusions quickly here.

The E stop string must be gone thru correctly to make sure every thing up to the point of turn on is ready.

The ERRROR CODES shown in the RED display point you to a specific line number in the electrical prints where there is a problem

with logic or component.

1) If this is a new to you machine,have you checked or replace the battery that keeps the machine constants.

2) have you gone thru all the constants to make sure they are all correct?

3) have you gone thru all the estop sting to make sure you have all the elements of the machine ready up to the point when you press

hydraulics on,hydraulics on and clear then reset within 5 seconds to actually turn the machine on?

4) I have found loose wires on the 4 long terminal strips and on the relay boards after the a machines have moved.
I sure hate terminal strips!!!

jcolliflower I see you are from Newberg, I have 2 customer there.

I think I have wire diagrams for 700c that would be close enough for your machine.

Regards
DD

Due to economic hard times the light at the end of the tunnel will remain off until further notice!!!

Ok, well I'm glad I went and checked before I told DD he was wrong because he is in fact correct. Spindle Drive says 'No Power' until hydraulics are latched in-- I remembered this incorrectly. As DD states above check the E-stop chain first.

Although if the 5V supply in the spindle drive is bad the hydraulics won't latch-- this I know from recent experience.

Although if the 5V supply in the spindle drive is bad the hydraulics won't latch-- this I know from recent experience.

Click to expand...

You can always fake a ready signal.
The spindle drive one mine once was replaced by one of Control Technique (and cluelessly configured).


Nick

Hello, Everyone. Thanks for the help.

Sneebot: I will check voltages as you said. Thanks for info on incoming voltages and testing.

Nick: I will test servo amp, as well. The electrical diagrams should be specific to my machine, since it's Ellison I might be getting them from and they did request the serial number.

Deckeldoctor: Thanks for giving some simpler areas I might have overlooked. I wanted to check the Estop chain but where to start was unknown to me without the electrical diagrams. I have not checked the battery that keeps the constants nor checked to see if constants are correct. I read in the manual that constants will not have to be changed upon start-up (that they're pretty "default"). I will look into where the battery for the constants is and check. There is a 6 volt battery in the cabinet that is always plugged in while I try to start the machine. This could be it but I'll have to look into it further. The electrical diagrams for the 700c would be greatly appreciated. If you think these will be a comparable-enough layout for my machine, I won't spend the cash to get the prints from Maho. You are close to Newberg? I would be more than willing to have to come out to take a look. Please let me know if you're interested and we can set something up.

Will be back with updates....
Jack

Jack

In your first post, error 57 displayed on the red Error code indicator points to a bad FUSE.

The fuse 6FU5 is a 4amp in the main electrical cabinet, upper left corner there are other fuses there as well,check them all !


The correct button push sequence for turning on the machine is as follows, when you press

hydraulics on,then hydraulics on AGAIN and hold, while pressing clear and then reset within 5 seconds to actually turn the machine on?


Regards
DD

Due to economic hard times the light at the end of the tunnel will remain off until further notice!!!

deckeldoctor said:

Due to economic hard times the light at the end of the tunnel will remain off until further notice!!!

Click to expand...

The light as been turned on m'man...she's a bit dim...but on

Hi, DD.
I am working on the drives now. I've checked the fuses on the power supply and spindle drive and will replace today. They are mainly 10 amp fuses, and I don't think these were what you were referring to. I haven't been able to find any 4 amp fuses in the upper left of the electrical cabinet. I'll continue to look.
Electrician is coming over tonight and we'll test all incoming/outgoing voltages.
I would like to know if you will send me the electrical diagrams for the 700 C. If not, I'll go ahead and purchase them from Ellison. Please let me know either way so I can have them coming my way.
I did take out the power supply and spindle drive. All looked good (nothing was loose) on the spindle drive, but there was a wire disconnected on the power supply in the back where the windings are. I will solder tonight and see what that does.
Also, I was able to retrieve a manual for the spindle drive, so I can give more specific details on the readout screen.
I appreciate the help.
Jack

Does anyone have a complete list of the constants for my machine? (1991 Maho MH 800 C) I checked constants and almost all had an "(Incorrect)" next to them. I need to reset my constants completely. My manuals don't have a thing about them.
We're checking voltages presently.
Thank you.
Jack

In the electrical cabinet, on the left sidewall, close to the bottom, there should be a punch tape with your constants.


Nick

Hello Jack

There is no use checking anything else until the parameters are correct!!!

I would suggest you replace the battery,before doing anything with the constants if there is no date on it so you start your life with the machine knowing when you go to turn on the machine it will retain its constants.

AS I have PREACHED HERE on PM you must start with the basics of the machine, machine constants,Estop string on any machine!!

You just wasted hours,days and money chasing your tail trying to trouble shoot things that were no where near ready to turn on because you DO NOT have the basics!!!!

I can only hope that all the wires and components are returned back to original the way they were when you got the machine.

I need to know what software level you have when you turn on the power on the screen and also the machine serial number.

Regards
DD

Due to economic hard times the light at the end of the tunnel will remain off until further notice!!!