weight of ruhla FUW 250 / 710, ruhla [thiel] duplex 58 or 159
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    Default weight of ruhla FUW 250 / 710, ruhla [thiel] duplex 58 or 159

    My first post;
    I live in Portugal, looking to buy my first milling machine.
    I'm looking mostly on German sites as these things are a lot cheaper there. I've found that shipping an extra 1,000 km makes little difference to the price, the main cost is local pickup + delivery.

    So my question;
    I see a Ruhla duplex 58 for sale. weight 1550kg
    Supposedly identical, a Ruhla FUW 250/710 is 885kg.
    I thought it was a typo but images of both data plates are clear.
    Googling around, I found other examples of the FUW 250/710. some are listed as 1,300kg, others as 850kg.
    These are built at wildly different times, but the weight difference doesn't follow build year at all.
    Thiel duplex 159 built in west Germany is supposed to be identical to the east German Ruhla machines, manual from the French site [link found here, thanks] seems to show a hoist loading of 1150 kg

    What's with these wildly different weights? I can understand a couple of hundred kilos as years pass and things develop, but as I said, the weight changes don't correspond to build year.
    And what's the opinion regarding these machines [the east German ones]?

    Thanks,
    Mark
    In Portugal

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark in Portugal View Post
    My first post;
    I live in Portugal, looking to buy my first milling machine.
    I'm looking mostly on German sites as these things are a lot cheaper there. I've found that shipping an extra 1,000 km makes little difference to the price, the main cost is local pickup + delivery.

    So my question;
    I see a Ruhla duplex 58 for sale. weight 1550kg
    Supposedly identical, a Ruhla FUW 250/710 is 885kg.
    I thought it was a typo but images of both data plates are clear.
    Googling around, I found other examples of the FUW 250/710. some are listed as 1,300kg, others as 850kg.
    These are built at wildly different times, but the weight difference doesn't follow build year at all.
    Thiel duplex 159 built in west Germany is supposed to be identical to the east German Ruhla machines, manual from the French site [link found here, thanks] seems to show a hoist loading of 1150 kg

    What's with these wildly different weights? I can understand a couple of hundred kilos as years pass and things develop, but as I said, the weight changes don't correspond to build year.
    And what's the opinion regarding these machines [the east German ones]?

    Thanks,
    Mark
    In Portugal
    I have seem something similar wherein one figure was the actual machine weight.

    The HIGHER figure was actually the as-crated for SEA FREIGHT total.

    Sea freight crating is not a casual exercise, heavy loads requiring stout crating according. Even so, the ratio seems too high.

    Finding a factory pub that has BOTH is how to see if that is a possible contributor.

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    The model numbers and the split between Ruhla (East Germany) and Thiel (West Germany) makes it very confusing when comparing models. I have no experience with the E German mills, but I can say that my Thiel 159 is different in design to the photos I have seen of the East German equivalents. Perhaps there are other later or earlier E German models that do have an identical design, but I suspect you will need to do some deep historical research to get the full picture. There is a reasonably good account of the history on lathes.co.uk, but this site no longer seems to carry the photos of the later Thiel models (159 onwards)that used to be there.

    One factor to keep in mind is that weights will vary considerably depending on whether the table is included. The most comprehensive tables (tilt/tilt/swivel/slide) are heavy and since they can be easily removed, you might see a significant variation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by billmac View Post
    One factor to keep in mind is that weights will vary considerably depending on whether the table is included. The most comprehensive tables (tilt/tilt/swivel/slide) are heavy and since they can be easily removed, you might see a significant variation.
    THIS... makes really good sense!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark in Portugal View Post
    My first post;
    I live in Portugal, looking to buy my first milling machine.
    I'm looking mostly on German sites as these things are a lot cheaper there. I've found that shipping an extra 1,000 km makes little difference to the price, the main cost is local pickup + delivery.


    Thanks,
    Mark
    In Portugal
    Look on the Dutch sites too
    I sell a lot to Germany just because over here machines are cheaper in general

    Peter

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    Thanks for all replies.

    Quote Originally Posted by billmac View Post
    The model numbers and the split between Ruhla (East Germany) and Thiel (West Germany) makes it very confusing when comparing models.

    weights will vary considerably depending on whether the table is included. The most comprehensive tables (tilt/tilt/swivel/slide) are heavy and since they can be easily removed, you might see a significant variation.
    I searched quite a bit; the company merged a few times through the ages, and the latest incarnation still sells machine tools, but their website has no info on legacy machines.

    The earliest machine I found, [1955] states "Nettogewicht" [net weight] 1550 on the data plate.
    The later machines with 850 to 1300kg state "samimasse", or combined weight.

    If that were the other way around, the table theory would make sense.
    Table size is equal in the machines studied. Of course that doesn't mean the weight is the same.

    Looking through the 159 manual, a thought occurred to me; what about optional accessories? they might add up to that much weight.
    Say one machine was shipped bare bones, and another was shipped with dividing head, rotating table, vice or two, etc.

    It boils down to; whether or not I should bid on a 850kg samimasse machine [with no attachments].

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark in Portugal View Post
    It boils down to; whether or not I should bid on a 850kg samimasse machine [with no attachments].
    Whatever it weighs,, it WILL weigh, published data a match to reality or never.

    I'd be more worried about condition, "extras" of AT LEAST a table, and not bare-bones, plus whether you can make the trek to view it and get a fair guess at the very least as to condtion ... before even bidding.

    Then again if I were in Portugal, I'd find it easier to scout pais vasco - mind - for a different type of mill - but still.

    Long slog of a "project"? Or closer to ready to use?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Look on the Dutch sites too
    I sell a lot to Germany just because over here machines are cheaper in general

    Peter
    Peter;
    I lived in nederland for a long time, so I have looked on a couple of Dutch sites but I didn't find much.
    I'm sort of concentrating on private sales, as I've found dealers usually remove the vices and cutters to sell separately.

    any links are appreciated, including your own [if it's allowed for you to post your own link].

    I can't speak Dutch [so anyone understands anyway], but I can read along quite well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark in Portugal View Post
    Looking through the 159 manual, a thought occurred to me; what about optional accessories? they might add up to that much weight.
    Say one machine was shipped bare bones, and another was shipped with dividing head, rotating table, vice or two, etc.
    That would obviously make a big difference, but I suspect that originally the mills were suppled with whatever the customer had ordered. There were a lot of accesories shown in the manuals, different milling heads, a slotting head, right angle heads, at least two different tables, dividing heads, rotary tables etc etc. Then there were trolleys to store and move the tables, boxes for storing accessories... Notas wide a choice as Deckel, but similar.

    I would guess you could get a 50% increase in weight without even trying too hard.

    Most of the 159s sold in UK through Rockwell seem to have a similar specification; perhaps different sales territories had their own specifications?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    whether you can make the trek to view it and get a fair guess at the very least as to condtion ... before even bidding.


    Long slog of a "project"? Or closer to ready to use?
    traveling for viewing isn't going to happen; the cost is more than the price of the machines I'm looking at.
    Even without taking into account risk of infection and risk of borders slamming shut on me.

    I have to risk it, and repair as necessary.

    I bought a few machines at auction when I lived in Holland.
    Drove all day, inspected, waited for the auction, price went silly.
    Did it again.
    And again.
    Then I gave up and used another tactic; buy cheap. if the price goes up, wait for the next one.
    I know this flies in the face of all accepted wisdom, but it's worked very well for me.

    project; well I'll have to take it as it comes, but I'd prefer a machine that can do some work at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by billmac View Post

    Most of the 159s sold in UK through Rockwell seem to have a similar specification; perhaps different sales territories had their own specifications?
    UK machine tools are mostly supplied with imperial threads and dials.
    I have an old polish lathe I bought in Holland, metric dials and screws.
    I saw one on ebay uk, identical except it had imperial dials and screws.

    I don't know if it would be the same for milling machines, but I expect that would be the case.
    That's why I'm not searching UK sites now; the advertisements never state whether dials are in inches or mm.

    Transport from UK is not expensive and the border is open for another 2 months.

    As for the weight question; that remains open.
    A guess an old catalogue would have answers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark in Portugal View Post
    traveling for viewing isn't going to happen; the cost is more than the price of the machines I'm looking at.
    Even without taking into account risk of infection and risk of borders slamming shut on me.
    My bad. Have an EU passport. Or it was. Brexit thing. Forgot about COVID making once-easy things much harder

    .. used another tactic; buy cheap.
    Second item of the Old Iron was bought via ebay, didn't even know PM existed, but the seller - and the machine - had been on PM, so I joined and used the info.

    All but one SINCE has been bought from a PM member, though the Cazeneuve HBX-360-BC discussed on PM for a year or so, was also in Milacron's "regular" dealer inventory!

    CAVEAT: Goods were cheap. Nearly ALL have cost more to go-fetch than their purchase price! Mind - I factor that in and still figure I've gotten value.

    It DOES mean I'm not "settling" for closer, cheaper, and some substitute item. I get what I wanted.

    Harder on the Continent to do that, but I never have been at all interested in auctions, no plans to start.

    Even on eBay I'm a 99%+ "BIN" shopper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark in Portugal View Post
    UK machine tools are mostly supplied with imperial threads and dials.

    I don't know if it would be the same for milling machines, but I expect that would be the case.
    That's why I'm not searching UK sites now; the advertisements never state whether dials are in inches or mm.
    Not entirely true for the UK sold Thiel 159s. All the ones I have seen have dual geared dials Imperial and metric on all four main handles. My mill also has Heidenhain scales and DRO which makes the question of metric/imperial nearly irrelevant. Not all UK Thiels will have DROs but many will. I accept that it is still has Imperial leadscrews, but that only makes any difference in some odd cases such as spiral milling, which you are not likely to need.

    I actually work in metric most of the time, even though most of my work is repairing very old mill engines, which are all Imperial.

    You can distinguish the Thiel dual geared dials from the more typical no-geared metric - they are deeper than the metric only version and you should be able to see this on a photo.

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    Prices in UK are probably better than other countries at the moment. I don't know if you specially wanted a duplex mill like the Thiel, but a quick scan of UK Ebay shows a Hitachi Seiki vertical (a bit like an old Cincinatti vertical) for GBP 1800. If I was looking for a mill at present I would be going to look at it at that price. No idea about condition but looks reasonable from photos. Might be a bit too heavy if you are worried about the weight of a Thiel though.

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    Weight isn't much problem until it goes over 2 tons. But larger machines will get expensive to transport as they get larger than a pallet.
    I have looked on ebay uk.
    Dual geared dials! now that's something new to me.
    If there's a DRO, and it works, I guess it would be a small difference.

    Several machines on ebay.de just went through without a bid at 2,300 - 2,500 euros.
    For me a score would being the only [serious] bidder and getting a machine at 1,000ish.
    At that level, I can afford to take chances.

    I just spent an hour on a German machinist site [using auto translate], they have a few and one thread is comparing serial numbers and build years. lots of data plates posted there, with the fore mentioned weight differences, and they only discuss serial numbers.
    My take away is that the duplex 58 and fuw 260-710 are the same machine and the weight is something else [probably including attachments].

    BUT! it seems that they use a weird spindle cone and adaptors are required.


    Here's something crazy "Milling machines" could be 1 machine or 2, both big old iron, no explanation, auction at 255 gbp for another 2 hours.

    I don't have the guts to bid on this; anyone in UK want to try??
    milling machines used | eBay

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    That is an Abene. Swedish made, good reputation, although I have no personal experience. At that price it would be worth having a bid.

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    27 minutes to go;
    someone is getting a deal, or a lump of scrap that will need moving.

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    I'm still on the hunt; A German dealer has a 1972 Ruhla 250 / 710 for 1,500 euros.
    Says it's a bit worn but serviceable.
    They also state the weight at 1.3 tons.

    I'm a bit excited by this machine.
    It comes with the outer horizontal spindle support [so often lost], and a vise.

    Please feel free to talk me out of it.
    Or into it.

    I've contacted a transport firm for a quote.

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    Mark -

    I know that you have said that you don't want to travel, but if a dealer says that a mill is 'a bit worn' I would want to see it running and do a few tests, or at the least get a good video of it running.

    That said, I have no experience of that model, but from what I can see online it has only some general similarity to the Thiel mills.

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    For €1500,- What can you expect ?You could ask if all functions work
    The main problem with these DDR machines is the electrical components degrading
    Perhaps the seller can provide a electrical diagram with the machine

    Peter


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