What to look out for?

Greetings folks,

I am thinking about seeing if I can pick up an fp nc machine either a 2 or a 3. It will be my first decent mill but I know very little about them. It seems many people love them and from what I have seen I really like the look of them too. They seem so versatile. I've decided its got to be a Deckel.

My question is what should i look out for in a 80's machine? I don't want to buy a lemon so other than general wear are there any issues with machines at that sort of age that I should look out for. I hear parts can be painfully expensive.

Best wishes

I would not consider any 80s FPxNC without a Dialog control, unless it was a later retrofit to something like a Heidenhain. Dialog 11 and the orphan controls like Dynapath that Deckel offered are very hard to fix unless you have parts machines to cannibalize.

Mechanically, check for galling of the Z-axis inside box way faces. (That said, I get good work from a machine with galling damage.) Run the spindle through all gears and ranges (flip-head) and listen for noise. Check any needle bearing spindles for water ingress, as the races are integral with the spindles and very difficult to repair if damaged.

Thanks rklopp! I'll post an update when i find something suitable

Some additional notes:
If going FP-NC...as Rich points out i would go for the Dialog control. More common and better support.
Would look for a Dialog 4 machine....most capable of the Dialog controls (short of Dialog 11) Better , more conventional cutter compensation
wider range of canned cycles and easier IMO to program. Has graphics and on the late version of D4 has helical interpolation....

D4 will also be a bit more expensive to repair...(more desirable)

Dialog 3 is not quite as nice, but swill have graphics for program proof like the D4 if its turned on.
Dialog 2 is reliable and robust , just not as full featured...No graphics or electronic hand wheel....no real RS232 for program transfer. Only one program can be stored at a time in the control.

Would stay away from the Dialog 11...More features, and more complex with control "modules" in place of individual boards for the electronics...No component level schematics for the D11 so repairs
requires swapping modules which can be very costly.

Earlier machine (non Flip head) are more prone to the vertical way galling....but can be present in any....My belief is that this problem is more prevalent in the smaller versions...(FP2NC )

There are two styles of "PC" in the big electrical cabinet....PC1 will have boards that start with "80" These are getting sparse. PC2 will have cards that start with "90" and these now are the most common.

Would look for a machine that is fitted with the MPG (electronic hand wheel) ...The mechanical hand wheels while functional are a pain once you get up to speed on the control and the MPG is just better and easier to use.

Controls (Dialog) require batteries to function, however there are no parameters to loose so a machine that has been sitting is not a problem so long as you can do a good check of it mechanically.

There are two different versions of the boards used in the Bosch servo amplifier....First gen boards have the part numbers beginning with: 038... these are single boards and you must not mix the amplifier boards
and the regulator board pairs from the later family that uses a "piggy back" board to tune the servo...The later version boards begin with #047...
The later piggy back version is deemed more repairable....

As to the mechanical side......Lots of gears in the drive for the spindles, so all tend to be noisy. Not generally a problem.
The FP2NC's seem to be haunted by high pitched squealing from the horizontal spindle...lots of theories here , but some have success with using a gear oil modifier in the gear case...
Larger versions (FP3,FP4NC) have a different gearbox bearing setup and do not seem to suffer as much from this issue.....

Bottom of the "X" axis way can also have galling, but far less common....

Machines are pretty robust and most everything can be rebuilt.....

Flip head machines seem to have issues with the "flip" plate mounting bolt inserts and springs. Also can have issues with the horizontal spindle "IN-OUT" shift mechanism...Can be damaged by rough treatment when
moving the flip head ...Broken shift lever and cam plate can be a bit tricky to get at....(have repaired three of these)

Inspect the "Y" axis ways (dovetails) ..Possible to run these into work when running the machine if your not careful and damage is possible.
Be sure the oiling system is operating and delivering oil...

Budget will likely need to include new way bellows and a full set of way wipers.

Electrical conduits on the early machines (silver color) tend to fail and break especially on the conduit to the "X" axis....Should be repaired or replaced to eliminate strain on the internal cables.....
Changing out the conduit can be a tedious job requiring removal and replacing in the proper position about 100 wire pin ends....(lots of notes and sketches here if your smart)
Be sure to get the "Orange" book...Electrical and electronic documentation for th4e machine....

Sure there are some things i am forgetting, but in general these are great machines.
Cheers Ross

This is excellent info, just the kind i'm looking for and i'm very grateful.

I will be lurking around the forum from now on trying to learn as much as I can about these machines. Some of the reading is very interesting indeed - just been wading through a spindle rebuild.

Thanks again

I would also advise you to look carefully inside the electrical enclosure.
All wiring should be in the tracks with the covers on. It shouldn't smell like burnt wiring or components.
The wires should look very neat and orderly. If they don't and it looks like spagetti inside,someone has been trying to repair an issue and did not know what they were doing.
Run don't walk away from a machine like that.
Dave

Very wise words diamondman, thank you. Running away is hard when your heart is trying to convince you that everything is going to be ok. I'll keep your words in mind.

On my search for a machine this one was offered on craigslist (london) for £3000 GBP If you think it sounds too good to be true it is. I played along for a while and then offered £4000 for it if the seller met me at a local police station. Strangely enough my kind offer has not been accepted.

I doubt anyone on here is naive enough to be taken in but "heads up" anyway.

I have posted a pic of the table as it has a distinctive oh F@*?! mark on it - I'm sure if anyone on here owns the machine they will recognize it. I guess pics have been lifted off the web somewhere. I did a quick search but couldn't find any similar images.

There is a cnc lagun on there at the moment for £1800GBP - It might be genuine but I haven't explored further. I will leave that to someone else.



Lastly, and this isn't meant to be a plug for the seller, there is a nice looking old mikron on there. I made an inquiry about it but ultimately decided to pass it by as I feel if it goes wrong i'm going to struggle to find or afford parts for it. Id love to be in a position to take a chance on it though.

So for the moment I will keep looking for the Deckel that is right for me and my pocket, but in the mean time I have pulled the trigger on an old manual Tos Kurim FNK25. It will be fun to play with for a while and give me more time to learn more about fpnc machines.