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What size vise are you using on your Deckel FP1/FP2 ?

Joined
Aug 10, 2007
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West Coast
Ok, I have struggled with this in my head for quite a while. I currently use a Kurt D675, not a real new vise, but a decent vise. I've long pondered over this as I've felt the Kurt D40 was a much better size vise. The D675 is just a bit big on the table for the FP1, and is big for the FP2 also.

A while ago I was visiting wrench (AlanH) and noted he was using a D40 on his FP2, it really did look like the right size.

However, the one thing I've always struggled with is that the D40 only opens the jaws 4" (actually 3 7/8" as I recall).

I've lusted over the 3400V as it will let you clamp the vise sideways, but the price is typically over $1k, and closer to $1100 when you get shipping and/or tax on top of it.

Seeing the post that Enco was closing, I went snooping around, but as it turned out MSC currently has a sale on Kurt vises and their prices are cheaper than Enco. Enco doesn't sell the 3400V however...:(

For some reason I decided to go snoop around the Kurt website and low and behold Kurt had some scratch and dent 3400Vs for $798. This is the cheapest I've seen them for (4" wide, and opens 6"). Shipping is free for FedEx freight, and no tax to CA. That saves me about $170 over the MSC price which is on sale.

Still a bit tough to pull the trigger, but decided to do it, it's on the way now... :D

What size vise are some of you others using on your FP1 or FP2 ?

Cheers,
Alan
 
For my nickel...don't see any issue with the D675 size....on an FP1 or FP2.
Got an FP2NC (similar travels to an FP1) and it is fitted out with the D675 and i think it is fine....Only reason to go smaller i think is if you are ganging vices and your parts are small enough so
that the 4" jaw is wide enough,that by going narrower you can fit an extra vice and hence more parts per cycle......
Even at 6" wide the jaws are well below the travels of either machine...and the D675 is not so heavy as to overload the machine and not a big
struggle to change or lift off the table....You can hold small parts in a large vice...difficult to hold large things in a small vice. More accessories available i think for the D675 series like redy made soft jaws

Having the ability to turn the vice on its side is a nice, feature for sure....
Cheers Ross
 
I'm using a D40 because that is what I had on the TM, which was the mill I had before the Deckel. I agree that a six inch wide vise would fit fine as well, although the slightly lower height on the D40 does give me some Z which I'm bit short on.

Teryk
 
and the D675 is not so heavy as to overload the machine and not a big
struggle to change or lift off the table...

I wouldn't call it light, and to put it on the floor is a stretch. I will be leaving it on the shelf next to the machine, but primarily I have a lot of stuff that would fit in the 4" x 6" of the 3400V and it should be easier to get off the table. I often use a manual rotary table, it has index marks but no gears. Works very well to fixture parts on and I can dial in the t-slots. The t-slots make it convenient to fixture on. The D675 is too large to fit on the table along with the rotary table, but I'm hoping the 3400V and the rotary table will fit. That might be ideal, not sure.

You can hold small parts in a large vice...difficult to hold large things in a small vice. More accessories available i think for the D675 series like redy made soft jaws

I'm not getting rid of the D675 by any means, as I do use it and some stuff will not fit in the 3400V. Time will tell how it works out.

Having the ability to turn the vice on its side is a nice, feature for sure....

Indeed. The 3400V is an awesome vise, as is the 3600V.

I'll need to see how the bolt openings on the 3400V work out on the FP1, they are 100mm between centers and the slots on the FP1 table spread 100mm from bottom T to top T. I can always bolt one set and use toe clamps to hold the remaining portion of the vise. Where the D675 only has 2 bolt positions, one on each side.

I have some custom hardened step jaws I use on the D675 all of the time, with a 3/16" x 1/8" step. It allows me to hold parts in the step, I use that all the time. Going to get some step jaws for the 3400V.
 
Depends a lot on what kind of parts you work on.
I have an FP4NC and use a 3610 every day--they are great vises.
Much of the work I do, only requires the vise to open about 1", but when I need more, seems like I often need 6".
There is also a new Kurt toolmaker vise you might want to look into- the KTR35, I think they are less $$ than the 3400.

Even on the FP4NC with it's bigger table, for one-off, repair and prototype work, I have never liked having multiple fixtures (vise+ rotary table or dividing head for example) semi-permanently mounted. Seems like the other fixture is always in the way or vulnerable to the machine crashing into it, or I run out of travel because the fixture I need is too close to one end.

Have a friend with an FP1, the 4" vises do just "look right" on there, and they are a lot easier to get on and off. :)
Ross makes a good point about the 6" vise-there are a lot more accessories and jaws available for them and I don't think a 675 overwhelms the FP1.
 
I bought a 3400 reverse (fixed jaw is toward operator) via my local supply house for less money than any online quote (but we're still talking more than $900...)
It fits well on the fp1, especially for the use of students (robotics) using it.
AND
It makes sense in my general vise inventory - meaning it's a size/config useful for some tasks on other machines (which are much larger than an FP1....)

I wouldn't hesitate to put a 6" vise on the fp1, but the 4" 3600 is a nice fit.
 
Much of the work I do, only requires the vise to open about 1", but when I need more, seems like I need I need 6".

Which is why I didn't opt for the D40, it only opens to 3 7/8".

There is also a new Kurt toolmaker vise you might want to look into- the KTR35, I think they are less $$ than the 3400.

Yes, I saw it but it's slightly narrower than 4", and more so it only opens to 4" like the D40. I was thinking to get the D40 if it was between that and the 3400V. Since I have the D675, I thought the 3400V would compliment it nicely and could move to any machine in the future. A quality vise is just nice to have.

Even on the FP4NC with it's bigger table, for one-off, repair and prototype work, I have never liked having multiple fixtures (vise+ rotary table or dividing head for example) semi-permanently mounted. Seems like the other fixture is always in the way or vulnerable to the machine crashing into it, or I run out of travel because the fixture I need it to close to one end.

I seem to have this problem with the D675 often, where I get it calibrated to the table, but then wish I could move it over 2" one way or the other.

Thanks for your comments.
 
I'm using a D40 because that is what I had on the TM, which was the mill I had before the Deckel. I agree that a six inch wide vise would fit fine as well, although the slightly lower height on the D40 does give me some Z which I'm bit short on.

Where I really notice a shortage on Z is when I use a sine vise on top of a rotary table and use a large Albrect chuck with a long drill. :nono:

I can usually get what I need out of the Z with just the vise.

With that said, I am just starting to get more into boring on the FP1 now that I have the Wohlhaupter and I suspect I'll be running out of Z on some fixtures. :(
 
This is to give people an idea of what I'm currently using on my FP1.

Kurt D675, I use this for any precision work I do where I need to calibrate it to the mill.
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Here's the custom step jaws, they're hardened and ground although this picture doesn't look like it...lighting is bad in the garage.
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3" Toolmaker Sine Vise, I just got this recently and have only used it once so far. I plan to use it for precision work also.
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3-1/2" drill angle vise. It has hardened jaws, but it was in really bad shape when I received it in a bunch of tooling with my Rivett 1020F lathe. Hershey bought it, and it's been drilled a few times in the cast iron. The jaws have some nicks in it, so it's harder to calibrate on the table. I use this for quick and dirty.
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This is a manual rotary table that is very handy as it has t-slots on it. I picked this up off ebay and use it quite often. Very nice to calibrate to t-slot, then rotate amount of degrees desired. The problem is when I would put the 3 1/2" drill angle vise (for lack of a better term), set at 30 degrees, I would start running out of Z axis quickly when drilling. Especially so with a 5/8" Albrect chuck and a full length drill bit.
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I'm hoping the 3400V will fill in a void for precision work where I don't need 6" jaws and/or the size of the D675. The 3" toolmaker sine vise can even be used inside the 3400V, or on top of the manual rotary table. I think the 3400V will be too large on top of the manual rotary table.
 

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Hi Alan,

On my 1964 Deckel FP2, I am using a Hilma 125mm (5") wide Hydraulic vise. This is the same one that came with the mill, and is also pictured in the contemporary product literature for the FP2, so it's the size that's intended for the machine. The jaws open to 200mm = 8", and in a later model (no curved features on the top) they open to 220mm (a bit short of 9").

attachment.php


More details about this vise and how it works can be found in this thread.

In fact I currently own four of these vises, because I have picked up a couple from ebay that were very inexpensive because they were not working correctly, and replaced the seals to fix them.

I have two of these vises matched so that the back jaws are the same offset from the Tslots and they have exactly the same height. This is useful for long parts, as shown here (the cast-iron bar is about 500mm = 20" long).

148803-img-4432.jpg


These vises are not pretty but they work very well. Clamping force is between 3 and 4 tons (I built a gauge to measure this, details are here.)

Cheers,
Bruce
 
Bruce,

Nice setup! That's some good clamping force!

Kurt makes a hydraulic model, but it's like twice the price. I had a hard enough time pulling the trigger on the non-hydraulic model! And scratch and dent at that! ;)

There are times I wish I had 2 vises like that of the same type of stack next to each other, but I don't see that happening too soon for me. I'll just need to clamp it to the table in that case. :)
 
Hi Alan,

These 125mm = 5" Hilma hydraulic vises can be purchased using "Buy It Now (Sofortkauf)" on German Ebay for around 400 Euro. In bidding they typically sell for around half that amount. They can be had for less (100-150 Euro) if you are patient and/or the hydraulic seals need replacement.

For you the main issue is the weight: international shipping to the USA would be expensive. A 125mm vise weighs about 40kg, which means that you would need two packages of about 25kg each, which cost about 95Euro each by DHL. So shipping costs to the USA for one vise would be around 200 Euro by DHL.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
For you the main issue is the weight: international shipping to the USA would be expensive. A 125mm vise weighs about 40kg, which means that you would need two packages of about 25kg each, which cost about 95Euro each by DHL. So shipping costs to the USA for one vise would be around 200 Euro by DHL.

Yeah, shipping is a killer. I would probably be better off with another D675. I think I could fit 2 of them on my table if I had something long. As I said, I would probably toe clamp it to the table if I had something long, at the moment, as I have done. Works ok. Only problem is I need to move the work if I toe clamp and facing like you're doing in that pic above. That's only small part of the time I would need to do that.
 
I only have FP1 size machines but have over the coarse of my career used some of the biggest and most powerful mills ever made so that does sway my opinion a little. I have a couple of the genuine Deckel vises, a D30 and both 4" and 6" Kurt II vises, usually use the 4" Kurt II but will use any of them depending on the work. I really like the Kurt II vises, ground on all sides and the screw pulls them towards the solid jaw which I'm confident is more accurate. I have never been a swivel vise user, I guess it's all in what I got used to but only like them on a bench vise.
Dan
 
I only have FP1 size machines but have over the coarse of my career used some of the biggest and most powerful mills ever made so that does sway my opinion a little. I have a couple of the genuine Deckel vises, a D30 and both 4" and 6" Kurt II vises, usually use the 4" Kurt II but will use any of them depending on the work. I really like the Kurt II vises, ground on all sides and the screw pulls them towards the solid jaw which I'm confident is more accurate. I have never been a swivel vise user, I guess it's all in what I got used to but only like them on a bench vise.
Dan

Dan,

Is the D40 a Kurt II vise ? I pondered getting 2 of those instead of the 3400V, as it was close to the same price and it would be handy to have 2 of the same vise, but the smaller jaw opening was a deal breaker for me.

I don't know if the D675 is a Kurt II vise, I think it pre-dates those.

I'm looking forward to trying out the 3400V on my mill. I picked up 8 sets of hardened and ground snap jaws with steps in them, the steps are larger than I wanted, but they were cheap, $100 for 8 sets. Some guy had purchased a bunch and didn't want them. 1 set has a 5/8" step, 5 sets have 7/8" steps, and 2 sets has a 1" step The price was cheap for hardened and ground step jaws, especially the snap jaws, which sell for about $140-$180 per set. I'll have to see how they work. I like my current jaws on the D675, they're 3/16" deep. These snap jaws may save me from using parallels much of the time.
 
Hi All,

Whilst on the subject of vices, can anybody identify the two vices that came in the large cabinet together with my FP1?

DSCN2514.jpg

DSCN2515.jpg

I think that at least one of them is of Deckel origin having an ID number on it.

Alan
 
Dan,

Is the D40 a Kurt II vise ? I pondered getting 2 of those instead of the 3400V, as it was close to the same price and it would be handy to have 2 of the same vise, but the smaller jaw opening was a deal breaker for me.
Not a D40; I don't know for sure but they may have dis-continued them in favor of something else by now. I have a couple of pictures somewhere but to try to explain it the Kurt II vises are ground on all sides including the end. They have no ears for clamping or using on a swivel base, only slots for clamps to hold them down. In that regard they can be flipped on a side or the end down if that is needed, I have only used that feature rarely but the option is there. The real difference is in the internal design, the thrust bearing is in the solid jaw and the screw pulls the movable jaw to the solid jaw instead of pushing it(helps to eliminate deflection). Also the solid jaw is the whole end of the vise, not pinned and screwed down on the vise bed. Has the same feature with the pull down mechanism as the D series but in my opinion a much better design.
Dan
 
I have a 3.5" Kurt II grinding vise with the features Danny described (pull type, ground on all sides, clamp slots/no ears) but the fixed jaw bolts on to the end of the body. Might be made from steel not iron. I think the Kurt II vise line kind of morphed into the 3000 series like the 3400/3600 and variants.
 
Not a D40; I don't know for sure but they may have dis-continued them in favor of something else by now. I have a couple of pictures somewhere but to try to explain it the Kurt II vises are ground on all sides including the end. They have no ears for clamping or using on a swivel base, only slots for clamps to hold them down. In that regard they can be flipped on a side or the end down if that is needed,

Dan,

That sounds exactly like the 3400V I just got. One plus on the 3400V is that it opens to 6". I got it, and my scratch and dent has a couple tiny dings on it, nothing unreasonable. Really nice vice, great size for the FP1.

Alan
 








 
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