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  1. #81
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    ...and some photos as I've been progressing through... painted surfaces cleaning up well.

    20191006_033530.jpg

    Linear bearings cleaned, repacked with grease and rods cleaned up as well as I can really hope for. Slides very smoothly now.

    20191006_033613.jpg

    Quite a bit more work still needed on the sliding gripper assembly, I'll post more as I go through it. It is nice that the cylinders are all hydraulic and that the hydraulic system was still closed when I started. I mentioned earlier that I invested in new caps to plug each fitting as I took it apart and I'm glad I did because I don't have to deal with corrosion on any of the cylinders, especially the ones that were in the retracted position which almost all of them were.

    More to follow in the next few days.

    [email protected]

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  3. #82
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    An update on the MC800H and the SL6B. Been working on both every day since my last post. The Mori is at my bay where I'm doing a run of long cycle parts so I'm working on it while machining. The MC800H is still at my home shop so I put in a few hours every evening as time allows.

    Mori SL6B:

    I've been still fighting the urge to repaint everything vs just the castings and paneling (Which are already done). The rear of the machine's paint is in pretty good shape so repainting is really only an aesthetic exercise at this point. I may opt for plan C where I build a booth over the machine and spray just the cabinets without removing them from the machine. I know I said I could never paint a machine without taking it apart but I usually don't paint inside the electrical cabinets anyway. This approach would be a good compromise between cost/time and appearance. Anyway, some photos of actual progress:

    20191010_183347.jpg

    I've removed the sliding tailstock base completely now and quite a bit more of the paint has been removed from the base casting.

    I removed the self contained pneumatic chuck...

    20191011_182106.jpg

    I'm pleased to report the special seals used to transfer air from the fixed ring to the chuck are in perfect condition. Everything will need to be cleaned but there is virtually no corrosion or damage of any kind which is a relief since replacement of that chuck would be very expensive.

    I will be completely dismantling that chuck to clean and lubricate its internals. I question the quality of the air that was used in the previous shop(s) where this machine was used so cleaning it and all the air system components gives me a great known starting point. As with the large Maho, I never even applied power to this machine before I pulled it apart. Trying to do anything with a machine that has sat for a long time, especially with some of that time outside will almost certainly do completely unnecessary damage...

    20191011_182215.jpg

    Here you can see the chuck and the stationary air ring removed as well as additional surface prep on the castings. Next I'm going to remove the sliding carriage assembly to inspect the turcite and remove old lubricant as well as any chips or debris that managed to get in there. At the same time I can closely inspect the condition of the way wiper lips. There is quite a bit of work yet to do on the Mori but besides general neglect there is nothing that can't still be in usable condition with a little care. I am concerned about the main spindle gearbox, that might have some issues as well as the internals of the turret and it's curvic coupling. I'll cover that soon.

    As for the Deckel Maho.... (Please see my next post)

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    The progress on the Maho has been unfortunately slow. When an assembly starts to become difficult when coming apart that is a good time to stop and give real thought as to how to proceed without damaging anything, so far I'm managed to stay patient enough to "do no harm".

    The sliding arm bearing in particular has been tricky. I acquired another puller and made some collars to get the end bearings removed so I could finally pull the shaft out. After that I was able to remove the shaft from the bearing and get it largely cleaned but the motion still wasn't smooth enough. I took the arm to my press and removed the recirculating bearing itself to see if there were any set screws which are accessed from the outside of the bearing that would prevent me from removing the ball guides.

    Turns out this is a THK Ball screw spline, one of the few Japanese made parts I've found on the machine:

    thk_ball_spline.jpg

    I've removed the seals and will be ultrasonically cleaning the bearing once I manage to get the retainer out. I've found a replacement for not all that much money in the event this one cannot be properly refurbished which is a relief. On Monday I'll call my local supplier and see what they are new.

    I don't think the shaft is in bad enough shape to warrant getting another one made from a THK supplied shaft. I've been toying with the idea of taking the shafts to get DLC coated to help prevent further issues down the road but that might be overkill as this machine will always be well serviced from this point onward, at least as long as I own it anyway.

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  6. #84
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    Update on that ball spline assembly:

    The ball retainer inside the unit cannot be removed without damaging it. THK uses a permanent adhesive to assemble both parts of the retainer. After several attempts to try to get it apart I decided it wasn't worth damaging it so I cleaned the internals as much as possible and reassembled with fresh grease. It works pretty smoothly now.

    I assumed taking the pivoting arm assembly apart would be simple enough but I didn't realize there were quite a few hidden parts within that made the whole assembly a bit more complicated. After trying several approaches to get it to come apart I found the tool holder alignment lugs could be pulled from the end of the unit which allowed for a custom small puller to be made and used to separate the aluminum casting from the steel backing plates.

    20191014_110525.jpg

    Inside each side of the arm are a pair of fingers which can only be opened when a spring loaded pin/wedge unit is pressed from the side of the arm. This automatically happens when the arm is in the position of grabbing or releasing a tool. The advantage of this of course is that the tool cannot come out of the arm when it is not inserted in the spindle or tool changer.

    In the past this entire unit had the magnetic pickups for each linear movement set a little off I think, at least a couple of them. There has been minor markings on the ATC from when the arm tried to move when it shouldn't have been able to be given that instruction. One plate that retains the springs for the finger release wedge is actually damaged as part of it was ripped clean off (The plate can be seen in the middle of the picture above). I'll be making a new plate that will be either thicker or add another countersunk screw to hold it down so it can't lift and catch again resulting in the same damage.

    This is half way through the cleaning process:

    20191014_140053.jpg

    It is good to take the time to learn how each component is assembled and intended to function to aid in future maintenance when it is in use. Although this assembly will not require much maintenance it certainly will need a little TLC from time to time just to make sure no coolant has washed out the lubricant and started to cause problems. I'm confident the arm has never been apart since the machine was new.

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  8. #85
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    I'm curious as to your cleaning methods and equipment. It always seems that cleaning represents a significant portion of the time required on a rebuild project like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    I'm curious as to your cleaning methods and equipment. It always seems that cleaning represents a significant portion of the time required on a rebuild project like this.
    Please see post 39 in this thread.

    The cleaning process on the MC800H is almost all of the time spent, made worse by the fact I'm trying to make it as close to new condition as possible without resorting to part or paint replacement. Some parts will be replaced and other parts will be repainted but I'm trying to minimize this.

    Today finally I completed the disassembly of the large sliding arm. It required some heat with a torch to remove the final stubborn key that was pressed into a hard to access ground shaft and I'm very pleased nothing was nicked or otherwise damaged in the process. There have been several parts found that would have contributed to ATC problems which makes the effort feel that much more worthwhile.

    20191017_012812.jpg

    arm_clean1.jpg

    On the Mori cleaning is becoming a balance between removing any corrosion/sludge/chips and actually removing the paint right down to the castings for repainting. I made great progress on the the Mori today and hopefully the Z axis saddle/ X axis slide assembly will be removed tomorrow.

    20191016_182020.jpg

    20191016_181918.jpg

    It is interesting to note that the Z travel on the Mori is restricted only by parameters, not mechanically (The ball screw has threading right until the box ways end). Because the chuck is so large (Z depth) the travel is reduced to prevent the turret from hitting the chuck body. For the work I do I'm seriously considering putting on a large diameter 4 jaw manual chuck which would be much "thinner" and increasing the travel to suit. I would much prefer the extra grip and adjustability as well as peace of mind of the 4 jaw over the faster self contained air chuck. We'll see what happens... I would love to hear what others think. I will be using this machine for API threading up to 16" material and larger solid round bar.

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  11. #87
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    If you are not doing a bunch of the same parts then a manual 4 jaw makes sense to me.

  12. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerv View Post
    Please see post 39 in this thread.

    The cleaning process on the MC800H is almost all of the time spent, made worse by the fact I'm trying to make it as close to new condition as possible without resorting to part or paint replacement. Some parts will be replaced and other parts will be repainted but I'm trying to minimize this.
    Thanks! Ditto that on time spent....

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    This message is for "hanermo" who has a full inbox at the moment...

    You mentioned early in this thread that you have experience with old school computer challenges like what I'm dealing with in regards to the VME-based control on the MC800H I'm restoring.

    I have that same control on my DMU50V and I'm trying to get away from the HDD it has now to get something more SSD. I read about items like this:

    Transcend 8GB IDE PATA 2.5" SLC Internal Solid State Drive SSD Model TS8GPSD520 - Newegg.com

    and this:

    YouTube

    and I wanted to get your feedback. I also found some VME blades that have large SSD's too:

    VME SAS/SATA Solid State Disk Module | Phoenix International

    I don't need large internal data, I just want fast rear/write access if possible to improve performance during boot, loading and switching between modes. My main worry is getting the DOS based computer with it's old BIOS to recognize one of these options. Any feedback you have on this would be awesome. If it worked for the other MC800H too that would also be great since that memory is battery backed and I would prefer something that can't "die" per se. Then again, with a backup copy I prefer the fastest possible solution so maybe that EXM-2A Solid state card isn't a bad choice? It makes me wonder if I could "downgrade" from the HDD in my DMU to using the same EXM-2A. Less memory for programs (Which I don't use, I drip feed everything always) but faster performance?

    Obviously anyone that has feedback on this is welcome to put forth their ideas.

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    Make sure you make a copy/mirror of the HDD, one day it will go faulty and then you have a real problem.It contains among other software the unique parameters, PLC program and motorlist.

    A SSD wil not make your machine faster , the controller has a 386 or 486 processor and that sets the limit. A SSD however would be far more reliable but complex to get it running on the old VME controller

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    Well i just read this through.
    Chapeau...quite mad!
    Keep up the good work!

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    After doing a bunch more board repair work lately I've placed my order for a Hakko FR-301 desoldering gun. To anyone else about to go through their CNC control boards pay the money first and save yourself a whole bunch of headache.

    Henry Ford's expression comes to mind: If you need a machine and don’t buy it, then you will ultimately find that you have paid for it and don’t have it.

    This is very true with desoldering, especially if the job is fairly large.

    I've been experimenting with blast media lately and have been using crushed walnut shells to clean delicate parts on the Mori lathe. I have a blasting cabinet and was very surprised with how mild yet effective the shell media was.

    I've since picked up a large portable carport/shelter to use as a "blasting booth" that the entire lathe can fit in. This will make cleaning the hard to access areas much easier and the walnut shells are pretty harmless on the precision surfaces.

    Here is the fan impeller from the chip conveyor motor before:

    20200110_015737.jpg

    ...and after the walnut shell treatment...

    20200110_023954.jpg

    This is very thick tar-like buildup that is pretty hard, I was shocked that the walnut shell didn't remove the paint but would remove such tough thick crud.

    20200104_145456.jpg

    20200104_145612.jpg

    20200104_150301.jpg

    Lathe is a slow-go but at least I have a great feeling about how well this machine will perform after I'm done. I've caught a few things that likely would have given me issues and the overall cleanliness of the machine makes working around it much more enjoyable.

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  18. #93
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    Well my Hakko FR-301 showed up today, just in time as I'm rebuilding a bunch of Fanuc drives and power supplies for a client. I know I said this earlier but now that I've actually used it I need to say it again:

    If you are doing any board work just buy one of these desoldering guns. It is worth every cent I was charged for it and I absolutely love it. I'm looking forward to finishing rebuilding all Maho Sr's boards with this unit. It makes the work a pleasure, really.

    Using my large-ish ultrasonic for cleaning IGBT heatsinks on the Fanuc drives also must be the best way to do it, I use "Simple green HD" in the U/S and although it isn't cheap it works amazing on aluminum and I highly recommend it too. Denatured alcohol works awesome too for certain things but also poses a serious fire hazard so I try to keep it's use at a minimum.

    I don't have much to show in the way of progress on either the MC800H or the SL-6B as I've been putting out fires for some other shops with broken down machinery. I've pulled all the power supplies from the Mori to go through them, everything in the NC cabinet has more corrosion on it than I've ever seen on a Fanuc... time will tell how much needs to be swapped out.

    Once all the electronic/electrical work is done on the Maho all that will be left will be finishing the ATC and APC assembly, getting the lower Z/Y combo telescoping way cover repaired and upgraded as well as getting the X axis way cover parts that are missing remade. I have a few panels that could probably use some new paint too. Maybe I'll actually see it run this year!

    In other news while I was ordering tons of electrical components for the Fanuc rebuild I decided to order the connectors I've been missing to be able to use my Siemens 802C control I purchased a little while ago, it looks identical to this:

    802c.jpg

    I've been seriously contemplating putting this control on the Tree lathe (soon) now that I've proven everything else on it works fine. The 'ol Bosch control has some serious limitations that the Siemens would take care of as well as provide me some additional useful capabilities, like thread repair.

    I would love to hear from anyone that has worked with the 802C, Siemens is unable to provide me with the necessary PLC software to setup the control due to it's age and they suggested I seek it elsewhere. For what I paid for this control (Brand new in box) you think it would have come with a CD with the necessary software. Besides that I think it will work well for the Tree lathe.

    Interestingly the version of the 802C I have doesn't seem to support the additional panel that has feedrate and rapid override via rotary switch, I would also be interested to know if anyone used up some I/O to put them in anyway in a custom panel. The control does have overrides via buttons but I don't know if I would like that all too much. The Grundig/Heidenhain Millplus control has spindle overrides via buttons as does Fagor 8055 and I don't mind, I do prefer the Fanuc Spindle override via rotary switch, even the ancient Bosch CNC Alpha has rotary switches for feedrate and spindle overrides.

    More to come as progress continues...

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  20. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerv View Post
    Well my Hakko FR-301 showed up today, just in time as I'm rebuilding a bunch of Fanuc drives and power supplies for a client. I know I said this earlier but now that I've actually used it I need to say it again:

    If you are doing any board work just buy one of these desoldering guns. It is worth every cent I was charged for it and I absolutely love it. I'm looking forward to finishing rebuilding all Maho Sr's boards with this unit. It makes the work a pleasure, really.
    Yea, those Hakko guns are really nice. Looking forward to more of the Maho build! Thanks for sharing.

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    Just wanted to say thanks for the desoldering gun recommendation. I love my Hakko irons, but never seen the desoldering stuff they offer. I had to replace several IC's in a drive and wasn't really winning with my old desoldering weller thing or any of the other old desoldering junk I had. So I found that FR-301 on Amazon with 1 day prime delivery and went for it. Best $245 I've spent in awhile.

    It actually makes desoldering fun. Typical Hakko it's built like a firearm or a space shuttle part. Really nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Just wanted to say thanks for the desoldering gun recommendation. I love my Hakko irons, but never seen the desoldering stuff they offer. I had to replace several IC's in a drive and wasn't really winning with my old desoldering weller thing or any of the other old desoldering junk I had. So I found that FR-301 on Amazon with 1 day prime delivery and went for it. Best $245 I've spent in awhile.

    It actually makes desoldering fun. Typical Hakko it's built like a firearm or a space shuttle part. Really nice.
    I have a super cheap and nasty desoldering gun, one of these:



    It actually works well, maybe a bit wanting for thermal mass at the tip, but pretty effective for through hole stuff. Are the Hakkos significantly better?

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    Hi Garwood, I'm glad my experience helped you with your choice for a desoldering gun replacement. I've used mine a whole bunch since my last post and although I did have some problems due to my technique the desoldering gun has worked very well. I picked up the kit with the variety of nozzle sizes and I'm really glad I did. I've already used each of the 4 sizes and swap them frequently. Having the right size for the size of the component can make the difference between overheating a pad and lifting copper or just getting all the solder and the component practically falls out.

    Gregor I can't comment if the Hakko is better than what you have but since it works pretty much perfectly I can't imagine it isn't.

    Back to the MC800H: I've done some big orders lately for replacement fans and more components in the drives. When I pulled apart the Indramat KDV drives power supply I was shocked to see blades missing from one of the fans! Once again, just reinforcement in my theory that if your machine has a bunch of hours on it from sitting idling the first thing you should look at is replacing all the fans and cleaning the heat exchangers/ heat sinks. It wasn't cheap in my case since I bought all the fans for both the MC800H and the SL-6B in one order but at least I don't have to worry about them failing anytime soon. When a machine sits idle not many parts really get worn except the fans.

    2020-02-21.jpg

    Also I received a package today with the new belleville washers for the clamping units! Remember those rusted chunks? Well I finally got around to ordering all the parts I need to rebuild them;

    belleville-washers.jpg

    The MC800H has not been a big priority lately but that recently changed. I was on the verge of buying yet another DMG 5 axis when I decided I would model all the machines I have to compare the actual motion of the machine and the typical parts my company manufactures. What really sets the MC800H apart from most machines is the trunnion's ability to tilt away from 90 an additional 30 degrees:

    mc800h_travels.jpg

    For what I do this allows me to do all the milling for my parts in a single setup instead of two like I do now on my Dmu50V (eVolution style machine). I decided to pull the plug on buying another machine and putting the resources into just finishing the MC800H once and for all. It is taking up a bunch of racking space in parts anyway, I look forward to seeing it move under it's own power.

    Here are some questions for all of you out there, just to see if anyone can help. The MC800H uses Heidenhain LS106 glass scales that obviously do not have the shipping/transport clips on them anymore that can be used to help set the 1.5mm distance needed for the read head if it is moved. If anyone has some laying around I would love to buy them from you.

    I've run out of time here now... more to follow soon.

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    Fans arrived today. Most of them are for the SL-6 as mentioned before. Only the really large fans will be rebuilt rather than replaced, due to the cost of bearings to entire fan ratio. The smaller fans are only a little more expensive than high quality bearings so I figured I would save the hassle and just replace them.

    fan-order1.jpg

    Soon I will need to start building the large crate to send the lower telescoping way covers off to Hennig. The proper repair, wiper upgrade and missing parts replacement on the way covers on this machine is going to be expensive, but worth it. If done properly (Which Hennig will do) they will easily last the rest of the life of the machine and will ensure little maintenance and high reliability.

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    What is the difference between those fans and the ones used in a computer ? The hub looks much bigger. I suppose higher quality bearings, but anything else ?

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    Hi Panza,

    Depends on which fan we are talking about. The AC fans are shaded pole motors which are pretty much bulletproof, no internal circuitry like your DC PC fans have.

    The DC fans are similar to PC fans but higher voltage and I have a better level of ingress protection rating on these than a typical computer fan. Also many computer fans come with sleeve bushings or other types of newer bearings whereas all the fans I go with are ball bearing only.

    With newer Fanuc drives I run fans with locked rotor sensors but the Indramat drives are not designed for these so instead I use impedance protected motors. The Indramats do have thermal switches on the heatsinks so if a fan does quit it will still eventually shut down and the impedance protection with a locked rotor will prevent any major circuit damage or fire.

    In some cases I can't source the original fan for the application and instead I have to match charts as much as possible.

    The last couple days I cleaned the internals of one more Jakob clamping unit and an entire linear ball bearing block to the lower Y/Z way cover. This involved taking it all apart, cleaning the balls, seals and various parts individually and then repacking with grease. The cleaning process was a series of steps leading up to ultrasonically cleaning and the final result turned out really good.

    Lastly I drilled out the rivets on the old fans and riveted the new fans in.

    20200301_114930.jpg

    I took the case down to the bare sheet metal and cleaned all the wires and connectors to make sure non of the conductive dust was left on anything. This machine was left running in a shop with harmful dust which is causing a large amount of effort to be taken to get it all cleaned out.

    20200301_144842.jpg

    20200301_123620.jpg

    I recommend against opening the drive or control cabinet doors to your CNC with the power on (unless it is impossible to diagnose something without doing so) because the fans will suck the dust through the drives and across the processor IC's that have very close pin spacing. I took Q-tips with denatured alcohol and cleaned all the IC's on the main CNC control boards and I couldn't believe just how bad they were. It was only a matter of time until there was a short and errors would crop up. If I have to run that machine with the doors open I'll be tossing temporary filter media on the air intakes to the drives and control until the diagnosis is complete that is for certain.

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