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Buy Wire EDM machine NEW vs. USED (pros and cons) Makino U3, U6 vs. SP64/43, U53/U86

cameraman

Diamond
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Pretty much as the title says,

Pros and cons of buying new vs used Wired EDM machines,

New being 2020/2021 -ish

Old/used being 2011 to 2004-ish

and maybe even older 1998 to 2000 -ish.

Mainly focused on U3 and U6 for new.

But older (2006 -ish) SP64 and it's ilk seem promising also.

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I'm a noob/neeb to Wire EDM so any NEW vs. USED advice for other brands and models would be also appreciated.

___________________


Reading a 2010 thread there seemed to be a sentiment that Wire EDM rates (one could reasonably charge) tend to be race to the bottom in some cases i.e. citing a $50 / hr or that shops that are heavy on the milling side have one Wire EDM machine just because ..? Not sure if that's still the case vs. shops that specialize in Wire EDM and other related processes.

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As usual any and all advice from the wisdom of the forum always appreciated !

Gotcha's and things to watch for?

Pointers ?

Plan would be to use official Makino techs for installation (or closest to) - if we pushed the button on "Used".

TIA.
 
Then second thought -

"Compare and contrast" thing,

Folks used to maintenance issues and pitfalls of new vs. used mills or turning centers,

Do older / used Wire EDM machines have issues that are very different from issues related to more "conventional" CNC equipment ?

Both good and bad ?

I know I'm asking a lot so any and all comments or answers to various fragments piecemeal greatly appreciated - i.e. doesn't have to be comprehensive.

Cheers.
 
Hi cameraman:
The pitfalls of buying an older machine are well documented here as the subject has come up relatively often and lots of us, me included have put in our two cents' worth.
So I encourage you to go back through some of what has been written here in the past.

In a nutshell it boils down to a recognition that if you buy used you get to own all the potential problems that come with used gear and for wire EDM it breaks down as follows:

1) The basic iron is almost always in good shape, wires don't get stressed nearly as hard as chip making machines like lathes and mills, so they don't get beat up as bad.

2) Where they shit the bed is electronics and subsystems...there are a bunch of bits that have to work together and some of them have to manage large voltages and currents under harsh conditions.
The subsystems that typically wear out are things like pumps and wire transport systems and autothreaders etc etc.

A ten year old machine is ancient...I bought a 1996 machine in 2008 and it had been reconditioned by a reputable firm but it still was not reliable enough for a commercial venture like mine.
I got rid of it in 2011 and bought a brand new replacement.
Well the "new" machine is starting to show gremlins now too...the vacuum system designed to pull the water out of the tray under the pinch rollers doesn't vacuum so good anymore so it sometimes pisses water on the floor.
The pumps still work but one of the gauges doesn't anymore.
The wire threader is less reliable.
The wire feed motor and autothreader have been fixed a few times now.
Sometimes it turns the HP water on before the tank is full.
Sometimes it doesn't retain the part origin in G54 properly anymore until the code is run at least once.
The servo amp for the rotary is getting dicey and won't always recognize the motor.
And on and on...I used the machine a lot and it's getting tired in that typical way for wires.

The second thing is accuracy...I stated before that the basic iron tends to stay in pretty good shape.
While that's true, wires are pretty unforgiving with respect to abuse...plowing a head into the workpiece doesn't improve the machine, grossly overloading the table doesn't improve the machine, never maintaining it doesn't improve the machine, trapping a slug doesn't improve the machine, dropping a heavy slug onto the lower head doesn't improve the machine, and on a tenths or split tenths machine these misadventures have noticeable effects.

Now I know from your previous postings, that you require a high standard of precision in your work...that in itself points you away from some one else's old clunker; so knowing what I know of you (which admittedly is almost nothing) I'd stay away from a used machine and bite the bitter pill; splashing the cash for a brand spankin' new toy that you can run your hands over with loving pride and count on to be dead nuts accurate for many years.

I don't think you'll be disappointed with a Makino...If I could I would in a heartbeat, so I will be appropriately envious when you do.
So call Brian Pfluger from Makino, and let us know how the conversation goes.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
 
Hi cameraman:
The pitfalls of buying an older machine are well documented here as the subject has come up relatively often and lots of us, me included have put in our two cents' worth.
So I encourage you to go back through some of what has been written here in the past.

In a nutshell it boils down to a recognition that if you buy used you get to own all the potential problems that come with used gear and for wire EDM it breaks down as follows:

1) The basic iron is almost always in good shape, wires don't get stressed nearly as hard as chip making machines like lathes and mills, so they don't get beat up as bad.

2) Where they shit the bed is electronics and subsystems...there are a bunch of bits that have to work together and some of them have to manage large voltages and currents under harsh conditions.
The subsystems that typically wear out are things like pumps and wire transport systems and autothreaders etc etc.

A ten year old machine is ancient...I bought a 1996 machine in 2008 and it had been reconditioned by a reputable firm but it still was not reliable enough for a commercial venture like mine.
I got rid of it in 2011 and bought a brand new replacement.
Well the "new" machine is starting to show gremlins now too...the vacuum system designed to pull the water out of the tray under the pinch rollers doesn't vacuum so good anymore so it sometimes pisses water on the floor.
The pumps still work but one of the gauges doesn't anymore.
The wire threader is less reliable.
The wire feed motor and autothreader have been fixed a few times now.
Sometimes it turns the HP water on before the tank is full.
Sometimes it doesn't retain the part origin in G54 properly anymore until the code is run at least once.
The servo amp for the rotary is getting dicey and won't always recognize the motor.
And on and on...I used the machine a lot and it's getting tired in that typical way for wires.

The second thing is accuracy...I stated before that the basic iron tends to stay in pretty good shape.
While that's true, wires are pretty unforgiving with respect to abuse...plowing a head into the workpiece doesn't improve the machine, grossly overloading the table doesn't improve the machine, never maintaining it doesn't improve the machine, trapping a slug doesn't improve the machine, dropping a heavy slug onto the lower head doesn't improve the machine, and on a tenths or split tenths machine these misadventures have noticeable effects.

Now I know from your previous postings, that you require a high standard of precision in your work...that in itself points you away from some one else's old clunker; so knowing what I know of you (which admittedly is almost nothing) I'd stay away from a used machine and bite the bitter pill; splashing the cash for a brand spankin' new toy that you can run your hands over with loving pride and count on to be dead nuts accurate for many years.

I don't think you'll be disappointed with a Makino...If I could I would in a heartbeat, so I will be appropriately envious when you do.
So call Brian Pfluger from Makino, and let us know how the conversation goes.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

@Marcus,

Thanks so much for setting that out - really concise and to the point AND excellent answer THANK YOU.

I have been quasi systematically reading through pretty much the whole EDM sub-forum from this year backwards - still tons to read;

But also threw this one up there as an easy "Handle" on a thread New vs. Used as I couldn't google or search to turf up too much on the topic (+Makino) YET there are a myriad of threads on failures of older and newer machines (in more particular threads).

YES you hit the nail on the head with Precision applications and did see a difference in nominal tolerances and claimed capabilities for older models + problems with buying machines with unknown histories / levels of key accidents / abuse / rare incurable lemon. I think I have a realistic eye on the tolerances and key surfaces we are after with the U3 without asking too much but on the other hand with some older (used) unknown machines, expected accuracies and straightnesses being a near miss would introduce some pretty frustrating extra(corrective) alternate processes.

Useful sentiment and eye as to what is considered OLD vs newer productive and tight machine. Thanks for that.


Very grateful for an overview from a very experienced individual @implex.

Seems if a second hand machine has hidden problems it may be tricky to set straight / cure which given the $ and time to put right may be a sort of false economy - not that new 'Whiz bang" machines don't have teething troubles and few wrinkles to iron out + other basics to get to grips with.

_______________________

Brian P - seems really excellent - thought I'd post on Saturday to get a slightly less proprietary view through the prim. :-) -

Maybe I'll give him a buzz during the week - It does seem Makino do a pretty good job of tech support on older machines if one is part of their tech support subscription / portal. [I don't mind the $ on that.].

In the back of my mind like what you set out @implex a new machine rapidly becomes a 5 year old machine, then 9 then 12 ... Time flies :eek: , but at least I'd know I did my level best to keep it good nick.
 
@marcus / implex or anyone else.

Anyone who bought a 300 mm ish X travel Wire EDM as their first main wire-machine ever regret not buying the next machine up (size wise) - that might have closer to 600 mm in X ?

Is there something that most newbies might ordinarily overlook on assumed part-size and space within the work envelope/ tank ?


Our own parts are not taller than 8" ?

U3 is 370 mm x 270 mm (x and y) travels [25.59" x 17.71"] : (220 mm in Z / 8.66" ).

and

U6 is 650 mm x 450 mm (x and y) travels. Z travel is 420 mm / 16.53"

Ta.
 
Hi again cameraman:
As you may have noticed from my previous posts I like to attract small stuff, so no I have never been constrained by the size of my machine.
Probably the biggest shortcoming is the Z axis height for most operators.
Mine's 7.5" and that's considered way too little for a lot of more conventional machine shops that make typical machine shop sized parts.

Be warned though...cutting tall workpieces is slower than watching paint dry and your problems grow almost exponentially as the workpiece gets taller, so although you may get capacity greed, it is not as useful as it looks unless your application is unique.

However, a bigger wire does not really occupy that much more floor area though, so if you can swing it financially...why not.
Unlike a lathe for example, you can do a teeny job just as well on a monster wire EDM as on a piddler like mine...it makes zero difference to the quality of the outcome unless you're into ultra fine wire, and that has nothing to do with the size of the machine, but more with the sophistication of the workmanship and control
Fine wire machines tend to be tiny because you can't cut a tall workpiece with fine wire anyway, so there's not much point in having a machine the size of a house.

Another thing to note...if you have taper cuts to make as part of what you do, you need to pay close attention to the taper capabilities of the machine you propose to buy.
I can do only 15 degrees at 3" tall, and that has been a limitation.

Many builders claim very extreme taper capability like 30 or 45 degrees.
I have been unenthusiastic about those claims...yeah you can, but doing so ACCURATELY is a whole 'nother problem and it has to do with the physics of forcing a wire to curve around tiny doughnut shaped orifices in the wire guides without deforming its cross section or breaking it, and getting a reliable stream of water into the angled kerf without flapping the wire around from the asymmetric flushing pressure.

It's all much harder than it sounds and I've been unimpressed with the results even from high end machine users on the occasions where I've farmed out angled wire work
So if your work requires large taper angles, do be sure to make the machine builder cut some samples for you and verify they can do what they claim, and that you can live with the outcome.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
 
Hi again cameraman: <snip all good :-) >

Another thing to note...if you have taper cuts to make as part of what you do, you need to pay close attention to the taper capabilities of the machine you propose to buy.
I can do only 15 degrees at 3" tall, and that has been a limitation.

Many builders claim very extreme taper capability like 30 or 45 degrees.
I have been unenthusiastic about those claims...yeah you can, but doing so ACCURATELY is a whole 'nother problem and it has to do with the physics of forcing a wire to curve around tiny doughnut shaped orifices in the wire guides without deforming its cross section or breaking it, and getting a reliable stream of water into the angled kerf without flapping the wire around from the asymmetric flushing pressure.

It's all much harder than it sounds and I've been unimpressed with the results even from high end machine users on the occasions where I've farmed out angled wire work
So if your work requires large taper angles, do be sure to make the machine builder cut some samples for you and verify they can do what they claim, and that you can live with the outcome.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

That's a great observation / finding.

Kinda came to a similar conclusion re: typical taper capability AND luckily I don't need to rely on Wire-EDM for "Odd" shaped ultra precise tapers (thankfully) to be really precise.

I don't have to make for example collapsible cores,

Most critical cuts are 'Straight" where everything else is refenced (mechanically ) to a couple of key surfaces. In some cases form grinding 2d profiles are fine vs deep squarish 3d tapers.

"Mentally" I have dialed down practicable taper angles to relatively small angle applications ( of the order of 5 degrees) + dialed down considerably expectations of large angle "Precision" tapers. I think that topic has cropped up a fair amount and most of the knowledgeable "peeps" here seem to have a healthy cynicism regarding what can actually be practically achieved.

I get that some literature "On paper" stated capabilities can be a little abstract versus what actually happens to a part in the machine - The Makino sales peeps and managers seemed pretty skilled at pinpointing key tolerances (and specific cuts relevant to us) and realistic expectations as I guess in the past some customers may have come back to say "But it says it can do this, this and this and at these tolerances ?" when reality seems to diverge substantially from that.

The "doughnut" geometry / thing is interesting. There is a Makino upgrade with a different "V" type clamping jaws it IS more spendy as a package.

Not sure if there is a mindset and different set or class of machine that have no U and V axes just X and Y but are still quite precise ? Given that some sort of U,V, adjustment is necessary ? [My ignorance.]. Extra stacked axes versus fewer axes ?

Maybe neither here nor there and various builders regard U V capability as expected/standard [I guess] + job shop / production requirements.
 
Hi again cameraman:
The resolution of what is achievable is not governed by the precision of the motion platform...it is very precise and as soon as you recognize that there are almost no intermittent forces from multiple directions as there are during milling for example, you can see why an accurate motion platform for wire EDM is much easier to achieve.
So the stacking of axes has less impact on wire EDM performance than it does pretty much anywhere else except maybe a CMM or other low, constant load platform.

The big killer for wire EDM is the practical consequences of running a tensioned wire between those doughnut shaped guides I was on about.
Obviously there must be some small clearance between the guides and the wire.
So you really never KNOW where the wire is within that clearance circle defined by the guides.
Also, you must pretend the wire is very consistent in diameter, in roundness and in material properties; each of these has a small but significant impact on how the wire erodes the workpiece, and how it responds to the forces put on it by the flushing, by the sparks jumping from wire to workpiece, and how it responds to being tensioned, and being wrapped around the guides during taper cuts.

Add to that, the wire is eroded too, as the workpiece is eroded, and the wire thus has a different cross sectional geometry at the bottom edge of what you're cutting compared to the top edge of what your cutting because you've wiped out more of the wire at the bottom, sparking it all along the height of the part.
Depending on how you apply the energy to the wire, you can produce a barrel shape, an hourglass shape, and/or a tapered shape on your workpiece.
One of the selling features of the Makino approach is a protocol they call "Belly Wizard" which seeks to manipulate the sparks to minimize this phenomenon.

Not only that, you have all of the forces acting on the wire caused by asymmetric flushing pressure, and this can change during the cut from changes in the geometry of the kerf, as well as changes due to things like bashed up flush cups, partially clogged flushing orifices, worn out pumps, dirty water; the list goes on and on.

All of this contributes the bulk of the errors...the constraints imposed by the motion control and the mechanics of the motion platform are trivial by comparison.

So it's not productive to obsess about the system geometry on a wire EDM as it is when choosing a high end milling platform...the sources of error are much different, and the consequences of any given design choice are much less significant.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
 
Currently running a 4 yr old Makino U6, PICO guides, 0.25 mm or .010 wire

The main use is straight cuts in carbide.

It's a decent machine in my opinion, after using it for a while, I would of asked for a larger machine for the extra filtration or asked for a separate / stand alone filter unit.

Now they've come out with a .012 wire machine that is supposed to cut twice as fast..........
 
I’d definitely stick with Makino, or at least stay away from GF machines. Their machines and more importantly their support has become rubbish in the last 10years. Another consideration is footprint. The modern series of wires from makino utilize the base as a water tank so they are much more compact than the SP line. For me that’s big because I’m always trying to cram more machines onto the floor.
Although the functionalities are very similar, I like the new generation controls and interface better than the SP machines. Having said all that, I’d take another SP in a heartbeat if I knew the shop it came from.
 
I’d definitely stick with Makino, or at least stay away from GF machines. Their machines and more importantly their support has become rubbish in the last 10years. Another consideration is footprint. The modern series of wires from makino utilize the base as a water tank so they are much more compact than the SP line. For me that’s big because I’m always trying to cram more machines onto the floor.
Although the functionalities are very similar, I like the new generation controls and interface better than the SP machines. Having said all that, I’d take another SP in a heartbeat if I knew the shop it came from.

Thanks for that input,

The U3 and U6 still take up a similar amount of floor space to a regular VMC (40 x 20) + proper foundation requirement and climate control and all that.

Yeah.. I was trying figure out how the technology from SP series to U series had progressed either from Hardware side / capability versus newer U3 / U6,

I have to admit the newer interface / control looks really good and super friendly to train folks that are more from an engineering / medical / generic technical front versus card carrying cnc machinists.

@SeymoreDunmore he says a lot of good things about the newer U / Hyper i control from a production perspective.

The SP series does look like it sprawls a little bit but GOOD to know that depending on care / history is a pretty sound platform.

I have reasonable idea how to suss out / evaluate a VMC under power etc. and what to replace and fix if things have gone awry, but I wouldn't have that much of a clue for a Wire-EDM machine.

It's kinda odd on the second hand market you do see (occasionally) Wire EDM machines that have very low hours, like the "Job" didn't happen or seems like a more conventional shop didn't really "Gel" with the machine.

The SP's I've seen generally look well used.


Having said all that, I’d take another SP in a heartbeat if I knew the shop it came from.

^^^ That's a very good recommendation / point.

Thanks for that.


Floor space is always a conundrum and wonder how these larger Wire-EDM shops seems to sprawl.
 
Hi again cameraman:
The resolution of what is achievable is not governed by the precision of the motion platform...it is very precise and as soon as you recognize that there are almost no intermittent forces from multiple directions as there are during milling for example, you can see why an accurate motion platform for wire EDM is much easier to achieve.
So the stacking of axes has less impact on wire EDM performance than it does pretty much anywhere else except maybe a CMM or other low, constant load platform.

The big killer for wire EDM is the practical consequences of running a tensioned wire between those doughnut shaped guides I was on about.
Obviously there must be some small clearance between the guides and the wire.
So you really never KNOW where the wire is within that clearance circle defined by the guides.
Also, you must pretend the wire is very consistent in diameter, in roundness and in material properties; each of these has a small but significant impact on how the wire erodes the workpiece, and how it responds to the forces put on it by the flushing, by the sparks jumping from wire to workpiece, and how it responds to being tensioned, and being wrapped around the guides during taper cuts.

Add to that, the wire is eroded too, as the workpiece is eroded, and the wire thus has a different cross sectional geometry at the bottom edge of what you're cutting compared to the top edge of what your cutting because you've wiped out more of the wire at the bottom, sparking it all along the height of the part.
Depending on how you apply the energy to the wire, you can produce a barrel shape, an hourglass shape, and/or a tapered shape on your workpiece.
One of the selling features of the Makino approach is a protocol they call "Belly Wizard" which seeks to manipulate the sparks to minimize this phenomenon.

Not only that, you have all of the forces acting on the wire caused by asymmetric flushing pressure, and this can change during the cut from changes in the geometry of the kerf, as well as changes due to things like bashed up flush cups, partially clogged flushing orifices, worn out pumps, dirty water; the list goes on and on.

All of this contributes the bulk of the errors...the constraints imposed by the motion control and the mechanics of the motion platform are trivial by comparison.

So it's not productive to obsess about the system geometry on a wire EDM as it is when choosing a high end milling platform...the sources of error are much different, and the consequences of any given design choice are much less significant.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

The more "Organic" two tenths to near micron / sub micron irregularities and phenomena interest me a great deal.

So far we have managed without Wire-EDM but as the real and far less clunky and more commercial "Miniaturized' solutions (we need) there really isn't any other way.

But for me personally it could be a really good fit; LOVE all the physics and electrochemistry and materials science (behind) the basic processes + the more subtle geometric and surface finish aspects + form + the CNC control / programming aspects + the fluidics and close space practical flushing aspects and various surface effects at the "Face" of the cut at different thicknesses of parts (that @Marcus were mentioning) + what you were saying about the crazy dynamics with the wire itself.

For sure there is an art to all this (beyond analytical ability) and good "Intuition" and flow / experience being needed and developed or a more general feel for certain materials and geometries.

The core number of variables to get a good handle on decent cutting processes seem quite large indeed and it's easy to see how one could end up barking up the wrong tree or stuck in a process cul-de sack (sp) for long periods of time wondering what the heck is going on.

So seems the newest interfaces with U series seem to have a large number of canned cycles and what (we) used to call "Expert systems" with the software (before everyone labeeled everything as being a AI of some kind) - to guide novice users to tweak various parameters without totally or accidently driving the bus off the cliff.

And at the same time the higher level interface does not seem obstructive to more advanced lower level "Expert" tweaks and hacks or be totally defined from scratch.


_________________

As far as geometry of machine goes and precision The U series (U3/U6) comes in one lower more standard base offering and then there's the Ui versions [If memory serves me right from what the sales manager was explaining ] - that have more bells and whistles but with that comes hand scraping and fitting of various casting and surfaces and slightly more accurate build geometry - as well as more comprehensive cooling systems etc. + possibility of an extra screen / PC to run whatever CAD/CAM you want at / with the machine in a slightly more integrated way. So @Marcus/Implex as you say the reality of actual cuts in real materials for most applications the difference between bog-stand U machine and hand scraped U machine may not be all that different for 99% of practical purposes / reality of actual use .

Makino did a pretty good webinar / live event (past few months) on different approaches to touching off/ orienting and clamping parts. Seemed the various accoutrements for that also had a pretty significant effect on referenced part geometries too. [Obvi :-) ].
 
Don't rule out mits machines. Very good quality, excellent service, and great controls.

Everything implmex has said is spot on!

Awesome !

Thanks / for sure - I've heard very good things about them Mits - That is really their 'Wheel house" in many respects.

Seems service and support is pretty good / really good too (in some areas).

Again - very cursory impression, but I think the Mits machines use a mineral casting / composite concrete / mineral casting that they seem very proud of / good track record - whereas the Makino is more based on their stacked cast iron castings and machine method.

The Makino has a stationary tank whereas machines like Fanuc Wire EDM (machines) the tanks move (as most people might know) .

Not sure if any of that makes a difference (shrugging shoulders) . vs quality of implementation, which all seem pretty damn good - considering it's a tricky process to build a reliable machine around.
 
Hi again cameraman:
You wrote: "I have to admit the newer interface / control looks really good and super friendly to train folks that are more from an engineering / medical / generic technical front versus card carrying cnc machinists."

Yes, a new easy to run control is nice, and I applaud the manufacturers for doing what they can to make things easier and better, but I think it's a common misconception to think that an easier control makes a big difference in whether a trainee can get up to speed significantly faster when he/she has more modern bells and whistles to play on.

Of course, when a machine tool manufacturer is hyping their product, they will become eloquent to the point of ridiculous about how it will transform the dumbest clod into a super genius who will spit out perfect parts at the drop of a hat.

You and I both know that's bullshit, so I wouldn't personally get too stuck on the control's snazzy features...most of them get ignored by most operators most of the time anyway.

Ditto for the machine architecture...by now it's pretty mature technology and the machine designs all look pretty similar, and solve the problems in a pretty similar way.
You could make a case for linear motors vs ballscrews, but beyond that I don't see a lot of mechanical design innovation that makes me say..."Man, what a brilliant new design...that's gonna make a BIG difference!"

In my opinion, where advances are occurring that are worth capturing is in the spark generator technology, and in that domain Makino has some innovations worth capitalizing on, and appears to be making it their focus for ongoing development.

Faster cutting with lower wire consumption is a big deal.
So is better better first pass accuracy.
So is finer finish capability.

Then there's build quality.
An interesting sidebar:
My machine is Taiwanese, and is made by the same guys who apparently build the "value models" Charmilles machines.
It's a perfectly capable machine if your demands are modest, but it is cheap in the details in a way the original Swiss machines were not, and it's annoying in a cheapass kind of way.

So crappy plastic knobs that don't feel good in the hand and are prone to cut you if you don't file the flash off before first use, and break when you twist them too hard.
Missing features like collision detection, so you have to be more vigilant.
Poorly written manuals so you have to spend quality time figuring out the features.
Indifferent service.

The list goes on and it's mostly petty, and I paid less than half the cost of a whizzo Swiss model (or a nice Makino) so I'm bitching mostly to make a point...hopefully you get the point, and that is that some makers seems to have learned to focus more on their profitability at the expense of their quality, and the comments from CPM2014 in post #10 seem to bear that out.

So the philosophy behind the machine tool builder's value proposition is worth considering, and I think all the corporate maneuvering at some of the once premier manufacturers has hurt them... the older ones were truly top of the line, but are the newer ones as good???
It's not an unreasonable question to ask, given experiences like mine and CPM2014's, and a telling reveal is in the quality of the detailing and in the service reputation.

So back to the topic of what to get and why.

I remain convinced that you need a top of the line model for what you are making.
How you define "top of the line" is not going to be about snazzy new graphics on the control.
The build quality and the generator innovations will be most important.
Whether the U axis is stacked on the V axis or vice versa is least important.

What you get when you pay the premium for new, is a machine untroubled by a history you can know nothing about, plus the latest in spark generator innovation which in my opinion is where the best payback for the premium price exists.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
 
One note that came out in my previous queries about this - *IF* your use will be intermittent, that is probably more of a problem with an EDM than a mill or lathe. By which I mean my milling machine can sit for months, I fire them up and warm them up, and the work fine. I forget the details, but EDM is apparently not so forgiving of this. If you intend regular use, no worries. Otherwise, it's a topic to check on.
 
One note that came out in my previous queries about this - *IF* your use will be intermittent, that is probably more of a problem with an EDM than a mill or lathe. By which I mean my milling machine can sit for months, I fire them up and warm them up, and the work fine. I forget the details, but EDM is apparently not so forgiving of this. If you intend regular use, no worries. Otherwise, it's a topic to check on.

Seals can dry out as well as the powder from the cutting process can dry on parts and really rip up seals. Plus the resistivity of the water gets way out of spec.

On the older mits (beige) units the tank moved, the newer (white) units the tank is stationary.
 
Thank God Marcus was bored this weekend and had the time to write an essay covering a wide range of topics. ;)

This way I can be my much more of the Cliff Notes provider.

If this is your first machine AND you will be depending on it for your operation, the DO NOT GO USED!!! No matter how "new" or good shape it's in, EDM - wire or sinker - is so unique
and non conventional that the last thing you want is chasing your tail solving an "issue" that is related to YOUR machine.
Let me put this stright out: When you are new to EDM, everything is an issue.
When you become experienced with EDM, everything is still an issue.
When you become the Grand Poobaah of EDM, everything will still remain to be an issue.

You want to reduce those issues to the absolute minimum whenever you can, and the first step to achieve that is to remove as much of equipment related causes as possible.
With a used machine at first, every issue will be a 50-50 toss-up: Is it the machine or is it the cutting condition?
A new machine OTOH will allow you to establish a baseline.

The prettyness of the control or the UI is quite meaningless if it isn't functional or capable. The Makino is very pretty and capable, but I have removed it's coolness factor immediately.
The guys were not even done leveling the machine, I already came back from Staples with a brand new keyboard and mouse combo, as I KNEW that the last thing I want is use a touchscreen
with dripping wet hands.
Said issue is likely an order of magnitude larger on sinkers with the oil dielectric.

Capability or options of the control now vs. 10 years ago .... well sure, many things have improved but not necessarily for better every time.
With a new control though, you will have a chance that it gets improved or fixed. Old ones you know you won't.

Question on support of old vs. new is obvious. With a reputable manufacturer you have a far better chance of getting useful support, but it isn't guaranteed.
I have 2 Brothers, a 21 and an 18 year old. With Brother as the MTB and Charmilles as the sales/support organization I thought what could possibly go wrong?
Well, just ask all the proud owners or Brother Wire EDM-s! Don't get me wrong, the HS3100 is called Old Faithful around here and had only the typical maintenance related "issues",
but the 50A - while still amazingly reliable and capable - was much more of a challenge to keep running without ANY HELP!!! from Charmilles starting literally the day after Brother announced
their discontinuation of the EDM line.
So now, due to an otherwise simple servo related problem on the 50A, I have a new U3 coming to meet it's now 6 years old sibling.


Anyhow, since I am derailing from the original intent of a cliff-note:
First machine: Go new with current generation
Second machine: If happy, stay with current machine ( new or used ), else play roulette and switch to another brand, but try to go with New if possible.
 
Thanks so much to everyone for their responses so far, sage like and practical advice,

After Marcus's last post gave me MUCH to think about and much to mull over so I didn't want clutter up this thread with (my own responses) / an immediate back and fourth. (tooo laaaaate )

Sometimes if things in answers are too complete and comprehensive there's not enough of a raged edge and loose ends for others to grab hold of or jump in on.

I have to go through my notes from a few months ago "Zoom" meeting with US sales manager from Makino for Wire EDM.

It was interesting as they were keen to focus on the core - physics / electro dynamics of their system and do a reasonably deep dive on that (for an initial sales hit). ~ in reference to implex/marcus's point about what's important and what's different between the different machines in practical way.

There's a couple of interesting issues with the complex interrelationship with Fanuc and Makino and how Makino prides itself on doing new and seminal research to deliver new products and methods, but at the same time the Fanuc approach and Makino approach diverge but there is some cross licensing (between Fanuc and Makino) + also the fact that the control is a Hitachi re-build with surface mount components of the Fanuc control... Jus wanted to make sure I don't put my foot in it - Have to go back and look through stuff,

AND as far as core electrical engine the more recent Makino offerings (even without the H.E.A.T process) seem to be doing something different than other proprietary methods and "Standard teachings". Reading around the subject a bit for the past 18 months or so, the standard theory of operation as explained in print* by the very venerable Bud Guitrau and how Makino are currently "Doing it" seem almost different / opposite for how the main circuit is controlled.

^^^ I know this point is disastrously vague and deserving of being kicked in the ribs for (repeatedly) - but having read other older threads @implex/Marcus makes the point these companies jealously guard their core methods and processes, such just needed to make sure I go back over things and while staying in Makino's "Good graces".

[It may take me quite a long time to piece that together and ultimately won't actually affect what we need to do in a practical way - but sometimes good to have some sense of how some of this stuff actually works vs. getting parts out the door.].

______________________________________________________________________________


* @SeymourDumore gave me a good kick in the right direction a while ago to the EDM trade magazines and various articles by Bud Guitrau.

Very excellent advice on the practical front - will come back later to comment on some really terrific and to the point "Points" ... (Busy day but all good).


Thanks again : :cheers:
 
Looking through your old posts seems like you have been at this for some time. Must have some really nice machines by now. Any pictures or description/specs etc?

Bob
 








 
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