Chinese Wire EDM experiences?

Hello!

We (me and my collegues) want to buy a Wire EDM machine for personal use, maybe to start a company later, and we have seen cheap machines in china, with a (for what we seen at least) promising capabilities for the price. Have any of you used one of these machines? Are they any good, worth the price? We have experience with mainstream machines (Mitsubishi, Fanuc, Agie for me personally). We want to cut some equipment for ourselves, different shapes form stacked steel plates, and inlays for a friend's company. Nothing fancy really.

I have looked into this machine, with the biggest generator cabinet )not from this compani specifically):
DK-7735-DK-7735-Ningbo Haishu Zhongyuan Machine Co., Ltd.


Thanks for the answers!

veiszb2 said:

Hello!

We (me and my collegues) want to buy a Wire EDM machine for personal use, maybe to start a company later, and we have seen cheap machines in china, with a (for what we seen at least) promising capabilities for the price. Have any of you used one of these machines? Are they any good, worth the price? We have experience with mainstream machines (Mitsubishi, Fanuc, Agie for me personally). We want to cut some equipment for ourselves, different shapes form stacked steel plates, and inlays for a friend's company. Nothing fancy really.

I have looked into this machine, with the biggest generator cabinet )not from this compani specifically):
DK-7735-DK-7735-Ningbo Haishu Zhongyuan Machine Co., Ltd.


Thanks for the answers!

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Looks like absolute crap to me. I would not waste my floor space with it, even if it was given to me.

The problem with buying 'cheap' machines is that you cannot guess their quality just by looking at pictures. Can you easily get perishable wear parts like power contacts, wire guides?

Can you afford to throw the machine away if it does not perform adequately? When buying the cheapest tool, this must be concidered.

These are marginally accurate machines (±.001") that cannot approach the performance, accuracies or surface finishes of the ones you mentioned. Unlike most designs that uses a brass-family wire only once, this machine uses a reciprocating, moly wire many times. After passing through the workpiece, the wire is rewound onto a second spool until it is fully transferred. It is then reversed and used again until it becomes too worn to be accurate.

I have seen several versions of these machines (Including versions from AGIE and Charmilles) in Latin America and in Asia. Almost all were running single-pass, production parts that were to be tumbled or undergo some other finish improvements. None had an auto-threader and none were submerged.

Every machine of this type I’ve seen appeared to run quite dirty with heavy chip deposits on the workpiece and throughout the work area. This is mainly due to the lack of submerged cutting and the absolutely-tiny dielectric system (see pic), so very “greasy” chips accumulate everywhere. During this process, the wire too is contaminated, but it is rewound and used over and over, contaminating both spooling devices. Wire tension is manually controlled by a hanging counterweight on the pulley system (see pic).

Finally, I don’t know how long a spool of pure moly wire will last in this machine, but I do know the cost of a spool of pure moly wire. Unless you are a hobbiest or gunsmith who will finish and hand-fit your parts at your leisure, I don't see this machine as competitive.

Well, as far as i know, i have easy access to the parts, they just take a long time tu arrive to my location. If the machine won't do what i want to do with it, there is still plety of room for me to experiment with it.

Also, i can afford to "throw it away", but that will mean that i will take it apart, and selling out most of it's parts, so a certain amount of money will com back.

QT [ We have experience with mainstream machines (Mitsubishi, Fanuc, Agie for me personally). ] I have no experience here on sinker EDM.. some EDM grinding many years ago...

I don't see much of their stuff in the used market..so no idea ow long they might make EDM machine.

I would choose a known name with buying a low mileage used machine. that way no surprises and have parts for years if needed..

Bud Guitrau said:

These are marginally accurate machines (±.001") that cannot approach the performance, accuracies or surface finishes of the ones you mentioned. Unlike most designs that uses a brass-family wire only once, this machine uses a reciprocating, moly wire many times. After passing through the workpiece, the wire is rewound onto a second spool until it is fully transferred. It is then reversed and used again until it becomes too worn to be accurate.

I have seen several versions of these machines (Including versions from AGIE and Charmilles) in Latin America and in Asia. Almost all were running single-pass, production parts that were to be tumbled or undergo some other finish improvements. None had an auto-threader and none were submerged.

Every machine of this type I’ve seen appeared to run quite dirty with heavy chip deposits on the workpiece and throughout the work area. This is mainly due to the lack of submerged cutting and the absolutely-tiny dielectric system (see pic), so very “greasy” chips accumulate everywhere. During this process, the wire too is contaminated, but it is rewound and used over and over, contaminating both spooling devices. Wire tension is manually controlled by a hanging counterweight on the pulley system (see pic).

Finally, I don’t know how long a spool of pure moly wire will last in this machine, but I do know the cost of a spool of pure moly wire. Unless you are a hobbiest or gunsmith who will finish and hand-fit your parts at your leisure, I don't see this machine as competitive.

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Thanks for the detailed answer!
I honestly didn't hope to match the tolerances and the surface quality of a quality machine, i just wanted to know that the conception will at least work. if everything will work as planned, i can get the machines less than 4000usd including the shipping and taxes, that is not that expensive - if i can use it properly, and it will work for the next few years. The parts that we want to cut with it is fine with the tolerances that the machine can do (is it can do it through i't operation lifespan).
To be honest, I want to experiment with it, modify it, see what potential is in it. But i dodn't want to buy a machine, that is an utter garbage, that's why i asked here, if anyone has any experience with these (lor similar) machines. With the info you got me, i was shaken a bit, so i will think twice before i decide to buy any of these machines.

There are types, that can do multiple passes. The rep said, that only the cabinet is different. Can you tell me anything about that type?

michiganbuck said:

QT [ We have experience with mainstream machines (Mitsubishi, Fanuc, Agie for me personally). ] I have no experience here on sinker EDM.. some EDM grinding many years ago...

I don't see much of their stuff in the used market..so no idea ow long they might make EDM machine.

I would choose a known name with buying a low mileage used machine. that way no surprises and have parts for years if needed..

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Well, they don't sell these machines outside Asia as far as i know. The rep said, that they sell them mostly to russian companies. That can be the reason why they can't be found on the used market. Chinese manufacturers tend to make parts even after the original product died, and if i can believe the rep's words, they sell a lot of these machines, thus i think they won't die soon. but maybe i'm wrong.
I would buy a used machine, even is it's old, but here in europe even the oldest machines are expensive. And we lack the budget to buy them.

What kind of money are you talklng about..I see CNC routers with China brands selling for 1/3 the price of a UA brand...Yes in the area of perhaps $800 china and 1800 to $2400 USD and bigger (small) machines for 3 to $6,000 USD.

from what i have seen of chinese machines in general the finish is not there and on one occasion the machine was dead on arrival a total loss to the buyer.
So i would keep your money and buy a good one when you can afford it.

If the machine won't work out as it was intended, i will try to use it a "cheap" alternative to laser cutter. A frient of mine needs a lot of (the same) parts form sheet metal, if nothing else, i can stack them up, and cut it that way, right? As i understand, a laser cutter is cheaper and faster to operate, but the machine itself is very expensive. Can i earn back (at least part of) the price of the machine this way?

Jesus Christ just buy the god damn thing already, nothing we say here is going to change your mind.

plastikdreams said:

Jesus Christ just buy the god damn thing already, nothing we say here is going to change your mind.

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Well, i don't want to offend you in any way, i thank you that you considered reading my case, but the answers like that won't change my mind either. Right now i'm just playing with the idea of buying this, ut i won't do that for a while.

Anyway, i came here, because i wanted to know what this machine worth, what can it do, how can we use it. I don't want to buy it specifically, i'm simply curious. I know the risks of buying machines from the other side of the world, from a questionale quality source (this does not mean that i won't welcome any more warnings). But since i'm not THAT intrested, i won't travel to china, to see what these can do, so i started a thread here, since maybe there are people here, who are using it.

I aprechiate everyone's answer, and opinion, especially those, that was about at least these type of machines. None of us (me and my collegues) worked with molybdenium wire before, that's why i need the info.

Honestly, truly, sorry for making this whole thing confusing. I mean the thread itself. I hope i didn't made the impression that i'm a stubborn idiot. Also English is not really my strongest suit, but i guess you guys already knew that.

If there's everyone alse with something to say, please, feel free to do so.

QT Op: [Can i earn back (at least part of) the price of the machine this way?..likely not.]
Buying a new machine and then cutting it up and selling the parts...perhaps get back a small percentage of original costs IMHO..

If you can make OK parts likely you can get your money back .. if the machine holds up and can do acceptable work.

veiszb2 said:

Also English is not really my strongest suit, but i guess you guys already knew that.

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De nem is a leggyengébb!

Seriously though, if you really want to start experimenting, you might be better off finding some older machine that is at least a "real" WireEDM.
Brother has been out of the EDM arena for quite some time now, you might be able to pick up an HS3100 or 3600 for next to nothing + transport.
The even older HS300-s might all be gone by now, the 50A was a rare bird ( here in the US anyway ) and the 70 is still somewhat supported.

If you happen to find one in the neighborhood ... specially if it's still running, they are as solid as they get for both, electronics and mechanicals.

Now for laser, I think you're mistaking.
Yes, they are faster, but they're also more expensive to buy, more expensive to run, and as far as I know lasers really don't like stacked parts.

SeymourDumore said:

Now for laser, I think you're mistaking.
Yes, they are faster, but they're also more expensive to buy, more expensive to run, and as far as I know lasers really don't like stacked parts.

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I have run a couple of fiber lasers, and I never saw any application where we could stack material to get multiple parts. It's just not how lasers work. And yes, they definitely run up in price quickly. Any CNC gantry under 200k or so is likely to be unreliable from what I have seen, there are far too many manufacturers of barely-functional hobby grade machines. I have even worked for some of them.

As for Chinese machines, two of the fiber lasers I ran were Chinese made, and they were both total garbage. The laser units themselves were IPG, and quite reliable and trouble free, but the machines and focusing heads were Chinese made and did not ever work as intended. The base/gantry/control assemblies were both manufactured by Dade Heavy Industries, and having spent extensive time attempting to get each to work, I cannot believe the manufacturer had ever seen a CNC laser function before. Supposedly they make thousands of these things, but minor features like a table changer that did not know which table was in the machine or have programming to keep from running over the laser head if it was lowered, or missing frequency ratings and safety labels on the "laser safe" windows were the norm, and they didn't even know what I was talking about when I asked about them. In short, the manufactures I dealt with would provide an almost accurate copy of some machine they took pictures of, with no competent support, no warranty (or they just won't honor it), minimal installation help, and absolutely no recourse when the machine failed to work, due to them only accepting cash. In 6 months of their "support" the 2k fiber laser was most times unable to cut .125" mild steel or 22 ga 304 without significant slag, which should have been well within the machines capabilities. That level of "quality" was present in every Chinese lathe, mill, or fabricating equipment I have ever worked on. The Chinese may indeed make some good machinery, but they sure don't export them, and certainly not to the US. I have personally never encountered a anything above Horrible Fraught level of workmanship in Chinese industrial tools.

I have experience with Korean, Chinese and Taiwan built EDM Machines.
Are you looking at standard type of wire EDM like the ones you mentioned or Fast Wire which is built in China? Fast Wire has been very popular in China for many years. I do have experience with 2 brands of Fast Wire like the DK-7753 that you are thinking about. This is a very different type of wire EDM process mainly because it reuses the .008" molly wire and the water has an additive that makes it an insulator instead of controlling the resistance like a standard wire EDM does. You can also buy very large machine that can cut very tall parts at a low price. It is good for certain applications like cutting off parts made by additive mfg or parts that do not have a high tolerance. They normally have a built in CAM system and are very inexpensive to operate.

It definitely will not cut to the tolerance of the machines you mentioned but the bottom line is what are you looking to cut!

To Larry

Yes, my priority is a standart, "fast speed" - as tey call it - wire EDM, but the "medium speed" (that can do skim cuts) is also intesting to me. I don't need to cut very tight tolerances, but i need a relatively reliable machine. A machine that won't fail completely mid-work. I know the basics of "what to expect", but i know amost nothing about the machine itself, since the sellers almost never understo what i wanted to know, or they did not had access to the info, i don't know. Can you tell me about the controller itself? I know that it can do programs from DWG files, but does it understand the standard G-code? Can i use it with an external CAM software? I own the software called PEPS (version 11), it's very close to my hearth, and i don't want to give it up, if i don't have to.

To Winterfalke

Thanks for the answer, i'm not much of a laser cutter type myself, but i know people, who wanted to upgrade their company's workshops with chinese laser cutters, i will pass on the knowledge you just said. The chinese workmanship thing is very useful to me, i will think on it.

To SeymourDumore
- Köszi -

Honestly, i never even seen working Brother machines on the european market. The problem is, that even the oldest machines (provided that they still in operable condition) cost like 8-10 times of the brand new chinese machine's cost, not to mention the shipping. I wanted to buy an older Fanuc Alpha-1C, i know that one (we have one at my workplace and we love it), but the price was insanely high (almost 50k usd) and it's a fairly old machine, it was made in 1996. I would love to buy it, but i won't be able in the next 4-5 years. Wit my current paygrade anyway...

PEPs can be used to create the dxf file. The machine does not use GM code. You import the dxf to the machines on board CAD system to edit and then use the EDM software to create your cut including trim passes.

veiszb2 said:

Honestly, i never even seen working Brother machines on the european market. The problem is, that even the oldest machines (provided that they still in operable condition) cost like 8-10 times of the brand new chinese machine's cost, not to mention the shipping. I wanted to buy an older Fanuc Alpha-1C, i know that one (we have one at my workplace and we love it), but the price was insanely high (almost 50k usd) and it's a fairly old machine, it was made in 1996. I would love to buy it, but i won't be able in the next 4-5 years. Wit my current paygrade anyway...

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That's interesting!

I've had quite a bit of requests from European members right here on PM who needed the comminication software and the RS232 pinouts.
Most of them were HS3100 machines, so I thought they were popular ( perhaps more popular ) there than here.
Initially they were relatively low cost ( note not-cheap!!! ) machines brand new ( something like USD $70K delivered - installed back in 1997 )

Since Brother got out of the EDM market completely in 2002-2003-ish, the used prices fell like a rock.
In 2009 I've purchased a 3100 and a 5100 from a place in OH.
The 3100 was a fully functional unit, the 5100 got a smash to the table, otherwise powered up.
I didn't care about the condition as just needed them for backup parts only.
Nonetheless, I've paid $9100 total for both.
I guess that's just the US market....