Compressor replacemet on chiller Mits FA20

RJT · Aug 22, 2013

Mits will not sell the compressor separately. They want $5,266. for a rebuilt chiller (to fix a $300. compressor). This is the third one in 5 years (1 year warranty). Anyone have a source for this? I'm tearing it apart to get the compressor out, but I have a feeling the manufacturer is going to be in Japan and tell me they are OEM only.

RJT · Aug 23, 2013

Anyone have experience in rebuilding a small screw type compressor? Buying an off brand replacement chiller will be tricky to interface. I think my best option is rebuilding or replacing the compressor.

MikeMills · Aug 23, 2013

Compressor Repair

RJT said:
Mits will not sell the compressor separately. They want $5,266. for a rebuilt chiller (to fix a $300. compressor). This is the third one in 5 years (1 year warranty). Anyone have a source for this? I'm tearing it apart to get the compressor out, but I have a feeling the manufacturer is going to be in Japan and tell me they are OEM only.

All World Machinery (All World Machinery Supply: Hybrid Hydraulics, Daikin Products, & More) can most likely help out. I have been using them for over 10 years for parts made in Japan and they are great! If my memory is correct, I think they also have a full service department. A co-worker of mine I think sent in a chiller for repair and they were very reasonable. Good luck!

Mike

RJT · Aug 23, 2013

Thanks, they are checking for me. Turns out these are sealed (welded) units. Not likely anyone except manufacturer could re build. I'll report back with findings. From what I hear this is a pretty common problem.

metlmunchr · Aug 23, 2013

Are you sure its a screw and not a scroll compressor? Scrolls are dirt common but I've never seen a screw type canned compressor used on anything I've ever fooled with, industrial, commercial, or otherwise. What refrigerant does it use?

Is it a burnout or a mechanical failure? Burnout meaning the motor windings are either burned open, shorted to each other, or shorted to ground. If the failures have been repeated burnouts, that would be a strong indication that the system wasn't properly cleaned after the first failure. Electrical shorts in the presence of refrigerants cause acids to form, and if the system isn't properly cleaned then any trace of remaining acid slowly attacks the motor winding insulation and another burnout happens down the road.

If it is a scroll, they're darn near bulletproof mechanically. As long as you use a compressor with approximately the same cooling capacity, and suitable for use with the refrigerant the system uses, there's no legitimate reason why the compressor can't be replaced with a different brand such as a Copeland that's readily available.

RJT · Aug 26, 2013

Not sure if its scroll or screw, I'm using second hand information from the service tech. We have not replaced or serviced any of the compressors in the past, only replaced the entire chiller with rebuilt units from Mits. I'm talking with Remcor about a replacement chiller. Not sure how to handle the interface, theirs is a closed unit but I need to have it communicate with the Mits controller.

metlmunchr · Aug 26, 2013

At the price of the exchange unit it might be worthwhile to have someone from a local refrigeration service company (not HVAC) come out and take a look at it before taking the big dollar plunge.

People normally associate refrigeration with restaurants and grocery stores, but there's all sorts of equipment out there cooling various industrial processes with far more stringent temp control requirements than food cooling, and the stuff requires repair work as often as any other sort of equipment with moving parts. You might save 80% of the cost of an exchange unit, and at the worst you wouldn't spend more than $150 to find out that there's nothing available in the parts market that's compatible with the existing components.

Don't know how much problem you might run into in interfacing with a different unit should you decide to go that way, but I can say with absolute certainty that 3 failures in 5 years is a strong indication that there's something inherently wrong with either the design of the unit itself or with the compressor its using, so going with a different manufacturer's cooler couldn't put you in worse shape than you're in at the present.

Zahnrad Kopf · Aug 26, 2013

metlmunchr said:
At the price of the exchange unit it might be worthwhile to have someone from a local refrigeration service company (not HVAC) come out and take a look at it before taking the big dollar plunge.

People normally associate refrigeration with restaurants and grocery stores, but there's all sorts of equipment out there cooling various industrial processes with far more stringent temp control requirements than food cooling, and the stuff requires repair work as often as any other sort of equipment with moving parts. You might save 80% of the cost of an exchange unit, and at the worst you wouldn't spend more than $150 to find out that there's nothing available in the parts market that's compatible with the existing components.

Don't know how much problem you might run into in interfacing with a different unit should you decide to go that way, but I can say with absolute certainty that 3 failures in 5 years is a strong indication that there's something inherently wrong with either the design of the unit itself or with the compressor its using, so going with a different manufacturer's cooler couldn't put you in worse shape than you're in at the present.

+1.
I've been told that those are nothing more than enclosed air conditioners. Be worth your while to find out.

BobRenz · Aug 26, 2013

You can even look at Graingers, though their prices on compressors are a little ugly. The compressor doesn't care what the application is - it just pumps refrigerant. Once you have the BTU rating, the temperature range, and the refrigerant figured out, the rest is just a catalog search.

makrep · Aug 27, 2013

RJT said:
Not sure if its scroll or screw, I'm using second hand information from the service tech. We have not replaced or serviced any of the compressors in the past, only replaced the entire chiller with rebuilt units from Mits. I'm talking with Remcor about a replacement chiller. Not sure how to handle the interface, theirs is a closed unit but I need to have it communicate with the Mits controller.

Hi, which chiller do you have on the machine? I mean, is it a Mitsubishi chiller? If so, there is no communication with the machine, only a pair of normally open contacts (normally 284-285) which gives the alarm for the chiller fault, you can bridge these in the connection panel, and the machine should run, although it will get pretty hot in the tank pretty quick. In the UK we give customers 2 choices, either fit a replacement chiller from Mits, or fit a standalone chiller with either a cooling coil of 50metres of 10mm copper pipe dropped into the dielectric tank, or to fit a standalone heat exchanger to fit the existing pipes on to. OK the standalone option does not follow ambient temperature and works on a set point, but that is how Agie Charmilles have worked for years with no problems.

RJT · Aug 27, 2013

It's a Mits chiller. There are 3 sensors, one for ambient temperature at the side of the unit, one in the tank, and one at the outlet of the chiller. I don't know how these communicate with the CNC controller, but I'm sure they do because when it goes over 3 degrees above ambient, the machine gives an error and will not run. Refrigeration company is a good idea, I'll run that down.

makrep · Aug 27, 2013

Please check on the nameplate of the chiller and post the type, and I'll check the drawings, but I'm sure that the chiller does not communicate with the controller, there are usually dipswitches inside the chiller which you can set the differential temps, which will error out the contacts 284-285 and give you an alarm. Try shorting out these 2 terminals in the tank control box and see if it alarms out again, I think not, unless in the USA you get different machines to us in the UK, I think not!!??

RJT · Aug 27, 2013

It shuts the machine down and gives an error if it's more than 3 degrees different than ambient, . It is Mitsubishi HE-UV3-03A 3ph 200/220 amp 8.1/8.2 R22 capacity 3000kcal/h. Compressor is RHV135FCC 350419. Refrigeration company doesn't want anything to do with it. Waiting on a quote from Remcor for a replacement chiller and I'm going to have my local CNC electronics guru look at it. Am I thinking this is more complicated than it really is? Working off a set point would be fine except the machine would never know if it got hot correct?

jlrii · Aug 27, 2013

I couldn't find much info on your machine but I did find a supplier for the compressor. LINK . At least you have a source if you can find someone willing to install it. Dunno why you are experiencing poor compressor life. Is cleaning condenser coil on your maintenance schedule?

From their site:

"Mitsubishi -
A well built chiller product found on many EDM machines and other Mitsubishi machining centers. With variable frequency drive applied to the compressor it can sometimes be difficult for many refrigeration mechanics to trouble-shoot. Look to your machine tool control "types" for an assist when you bring in the refrigeration tech. Many of the Mitsubishi chiller designs are "in-line" which means the chiller contains the refrigeration circuit but the fluid media circulating pump is located near the heat source. This variable frequency design allows for the cooling load to be adjusted because the compressor is allowed to slow down, giving a "throttle effect" that might otherwise be obtained in refrigeration by the expansion device. These chillers utilize R-22, a three (3) phase hermetic compressor (with "Frequol Drive"), capillary tube expansion device, and valves re-directing fluid to compliment the "throttling" of heat removal."

JR

SteveEx30 · Aug 27, 2013

jlrii said:
I couldn't find much info on your machine but I did find a supplier for the compressor. LINK . At least you have a source if you can find someone willing to install it. Dunno why you are experiencing poor compressor life. Is cleaning condenser coil on your maintenance schedule?

From their site:

"Mitsubishi -
A well built chiller product found on many EDM machines and other Mitsubishi machining centers. With variable frequency drive applied to the compressor it can sometimes be difficult for many refrigeration mechanics to trouble-shoot. Look to your machine tool control "types" for an assist when you bring in the refrigeration tech. Many of the Mitsubishi chiller designs are "in-line" which means the chiller contains the refrigeration circuit but the fluid media circulating pump is located near the heat source. This variable frequency design allows for the cooling load to be adjusted because the compressor is allowed to slow down, giving a "throttle effect" that might otherwise be obtained in refrigeration by the expansion device. These chillers utilize R-22, a three (3) phase hermetic compressor (with "Frequol Drive"), capillary tube expansion device, and valves re-directing fluid to compliment the "throttling" of heat removal."

JR

Just splice the 3 temp sensor leads into the 1 tank sensor lead so it won't see a temp difference and u can still use it without a chiller.

Zahnrad Kopf · Aug 27, 2013

jlrii said:
I couldn't find much info on your machine but I did find a supplier for the compressor. LINK . At least you have a source if you can find someone willing to install it. Dunno why you are experiencing poor compressor life. Is cleaning condenser coil on your maintenance schedule?

From their site:

"Mitsubishi -
A well built chiller product found on many EDM machines and other Mitsubishi machining centers. With variable frequency drive applied to the compressor it can sometimes be difficult for many refrigeration mechanics to trouble-shoot. Look to your machine tool control "types" for an assist when you bring in the refrigeration tech. Many of the Mitsubishi chiller designs are "in-line" which means the chiller contains the refrigeration circuit but the fluid media circulating pump is located near the heat source. This variable frequency design allows for the cooling load to be adjusted because the compressor is allowed to slow down, giving a "throttle effect" that might otherwise be obtained in refrigeration by the expansion device. These chillers utilize R-22, a three (3) phase hermetic compressor (with "Frequol Drive"), capillary tube expansion device, and valves re-directing fluid to compliment the "throttling" of heat removal."

JR

Wow. Nice find! Well done. Nice list of the parts right below that missive, on their page, too... I've bookmarked that for hopefully no reason, but bookmarked all the same! Thank you.

makrep · Aug 28, 2013

RJT said:
It shuts the machine down and gives an error if it's more than 3 degrees different than ambient, . It is Mitsubishi HE-UV3-03A 3ph 200/220 amp 8.1/8.2 R22 capacity 3000kcal/h. Compressor is RHV135FCC 350419. Refrigeration company doesn't want anything to do with it. Waiting on a quote from Remcor for a replacement chiller and I'm going to have my local CNC electronics guru look at it. Am I thinking this is more complicated than it really is? Working off a set point would be fine except the machine would never know if it got hot correct?

What is the error that the machine gives? Is it U796 LR out of cntrl? I think you are thinking its more complicated than it actually is. I didn't get time today to look in the wiring manual, but if I remember tomorrow I will.

makrep · Aug 28, 2013

OK, forget the U796 alarm, this is overrun. Is your FA machine a 64bit control or the touch screen model? is there an alarm on the display of the chiller and the machine if so what are the alarms?

RJT · Aug 29, 2013

We get U840 Unit Cooler alarm and also Z53 UPS AC fail. There is also an alarm on the chiller, (E5 ambient temp I think, it is not stored so I'm going from memory). I have been on the phone for 2 days talking with several people. Remcor no longer makes units suitable for this application. Got a quote from Small Chiller Supply (link in previous reply) but would need a separate 3 phase line, motor starter, and interface. It can be done with an aftermarket chiller, but for the extra time it's going to take we went with Mitsubishi replacement. We need to get the machine running and it's in stock, plug it in and go. My next step is looking at replacing this machine with Makino, Sodik , or Fanuc. I wonder if other makes have the same issues with chillers?

makrep · Aug 30, 2013

We have experienced this on 1 machine here and if the alarm was E6 on the chiller it was only one of the sensors was faulty, we replaced this and everything was back to normal. Let me know and I might be able to tell you which sensor it was.

Compressor replacemet on chiller Mits FA20

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