Considering a Charmilles D10 for a hobbyist - ?Power reqs?
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  1. #1
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    EDM'ers,
    I'm being teased (baited?) with the possibility of picking up an older manual table Charmilles D10 with an Isopulse 25 unit for only a couple of hundred dollars.

    Does anyone know what the power requirements are for this unit? I cannot see it under power, the shop put it in storage several months ago and hadn't used it for even longer. It would come with the micro-polisher, which sounds nice but admittedly means nothing to me.

    I know you guys won't be shy about giving me a reality check regarding this pursuit. As I am a home shop hobbyist, learning about EDM is appealing and using a EDM sinker as a 'broken tap burner' would be nice, maybe down the road doing small parts might justify the purchase, but I don't really have ready need for it.

    Am I crazy to look at this machine just because I can get it at a good (to me) price?

    Denis

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    440/3phase no??
    If your picking it up to just have fun with, you can't go wrong... Don't forget about dielectric costs... See if your buddy has some laying around that you can have. Also, may want to clean out the tanks where it's living at right now. If you can get away with not moving all the EDM sludge into your garage, you'll be happier when the day comes that you HAVE to clean it out. Take a look at the filters as well. Some of those filters can run you as much as your going to spend on the machine. Also remember, Ram EDM's can and do catch on fire if you're not careful. It would suck to loose your home because you wanted to burn a coining block just for $hits and giggles. (I've got a nice one of a dollar coin from a hotel in Vegas. Only burned half of it though so as to not break any laws... Only cost me twenty-five dollars in coins to do...) Keep the dielectric well above the spark and don't walk away while making smoke. Drop off some cards at the auto parts store advertising "broken bolt removal". Charge by how much the part is worth that your removing the bolt. That should at least pay for your yearly filter bill...

  3. #3
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    3 Phase I figured on. 440?!? Yikes. That definately puts this machine out of the hobbiest range.

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    We pulled our D-10 out of service about 3 weeks ago, and it was wired for 220v. Space

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    Sweet! Space, thanks for the voltage check.

    Jay Cee, Great tips on several things I had not thought of. I appreciate it.

    Looks like I'll be adding another project to the list.

    Steamin

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    Steamin: Check the machine before you buy it, ours was set up for 220v, that doens't mean they all are. As far as a good machine ours was used steady(2-3 times a week) since 1974, with only 1 service call. As far as parts go I have heard Charmilles will not carry parts for them anymore. Space

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    One more thing to consider, this machine need a cooling system on the dielectric. Either a chiller with a resivour, or tap water through it once and down the drain. If you do much heavy burning the dielectric will heat up. Space

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    Thanks for the follow-up. I found some notes elsewhere about Charmilles not supporting the 'green' older units anymore.

    I'll have to look for the chiller setup.

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    the answer to the orignal question is 3kVA, though I belive some variants are 4kVA.

    A 440V 3ph machine can be "re-wired" for single phase...takes a bit of work though.

    A "large Rotary phase converter" will also do the trick....it worked fine with mine anyways

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    Phase converter of course... Why don't I ever think of those???...
    One thing is for sure, you wouldn't have to worry about a stable third leg with that machine.

    Let's see... What can you build for a super cheap chilling unit?? Especially if your only going to use it as a hobby type deal?? Dielectric should stay pretty cool in St. Louis while not in operation. At least during the winter anyhow. How big of a burn could a hobbyist actually do?? I'd figure coin size would be about it. Anyone have an idea for a cheap chiller?? Oh... I've seen little portable chillers on eBay for $100 or so... Think they would work for a hobbyist?? I bet the powerful minds here can come up with something cheaper than that. Bucket of ice and a fish tank pump running through a heat exchanger? How about something you put right in the work tank? Two or three metal shakers full of ice? A twelve pack of Bud Light... Ugh, huge waste of beer...forget I said that...

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    noob question: Why do I need to keep the dialectric cool?

    back to the power question. Thinking in terms of kVA is new to me, since I am used to Volts and Amps. And I know, roughly, what my 3p 220v rotary phase converter I built can put out.

    A quick google reveals this formula:
    Convert KVA to AMPS:
    Multiply KVA by 1000/voltage
    For 3 Phase power divide by 1.73

    so 3kVA/1000/220/1.73 = 7.8A
    and at 4kVA it would be 10.5A

    Sound right?

  12. #12
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    I very well could be mistaken; but I think the heat exchanger is incorporated into the sump/dielectric tank on these machines. I haven't looked at one in a few years; but I remember the sump setting on the floor behind the benches, and I think there was just a water supply line and a outlet into a floor drain.

    The dielectric needs to be kept from getting too hot. It can/will burn and overheating it just increases the risk. Temperature control also helps with dimensional changes in the machine.

    Since you will be using it for a hobby type machine, the chiller may not be a necessity.

    Just my $.02.

    Kevin

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    Joeby: You are right on the chiller system. We were plumbed into tap water and a sewer drain line on our machine, it is a water hog. Turn on the machine and the water starts flowing. No turn off until di-electric reaches a certin temperature. Might not be necessarry but hydralic system for ram is incorporated into the same unit as chiller and dielectric system, this could cause a fair amount of heat also. Space

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    Space,
    I had completely forgotten that the hydraulic system was incorporated into the same unit. That could be a source of considerable heat.

    I wonder if the cooling water could be recirculated through a TIG cooling unit. Some of the guys on the welding forum have built their own, lots of good ideas there.

    Kevin

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    Wow... I can't believe they would chill a machine with tap water running through the system and right down the drain. You fire that thing up and Lake Michigan will be gone in a week. What were they thinking??? And to think I've been consciously turning off the faucet while I brush my teeth...
    Steamin... The EDM spark is estimated to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000C. You get a big enough surface area cooking and it doesn't take long to heat that dielectric up. I say "estimated" because last I knew they had not been able to nail down the number. Part of the reason they have come up with 10,000C is because that's the temp that carbon sublimates. Real kewl stuff when you get into mico-levels of what’s happening... Kewl because it's still kind of a mystery... I still think the EDM spark could actually be a little tiny doorway to other parallel dimensions. Sometimes when I've had just enough tequila and stare real hard at the spark I could swear I see another Jay Cee staring right back at me. Only that Jay Cee is evil and has bad teeth...

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    Steamin
    The little D10 charmilled is one heck of a good little machine, I ran one back in the late 60's for mold work, small electronics parts. Keep you dielectric oil as clean as possible and keep the oil temperature below 80 degrees if possible. You should be able to cool the hyd. and oil with a small radiator, 50 gal. tank and small pump. The largest cavity I cut on a D10 was a 4.750 diameter gear cavity ( it took a long time).

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    JayCee: EDM (Evil Demon Magic)??? You need Tequilla to see stuf like that?? Our D-10 was the only machine we had hooked up that way all of our others are on chillers, throw back from the old shop management. We are an electronics company and ours was used for small work, I think 2" dia. cavity was the biggest part I ever saw it burn. The part Dallace was talking about was a monster cavity. Space

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    Well I struck a deal and picked up the unit today.



    It has been disconnected and unused for two years, so I could not see it in service.

    I got 5 gals of new dialectric plus whatever is in the tank, which I could not clean out before moving it. And some electrodes from their last job, which was basically broaching a square hole in a SS part. The 'trodes are a copper-shaded and not black like I expected.

    The head unit has the power specs on it: 220v, 3phase, 2.2kVA. My RPC should handle it, yea!

    I did not find any obvious connection fittings for water/a chiller on the head or tank. Since I will have to empty/clean the tank, I'll keep an eye out for it.

    The bad news: No manual. I can figure out how to hook it up, but I am clueless about how to operate it. And the bank of knobs and switches on the Isopulse unit is intimidating to me -- and that's before I include the Microfinish unit!


    So next steps are cleanup, inspection, and building a bench (not part of the deal). It may be spring before I re-assemble and power up, but advice given up to now has been very helpful.

    Denis

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    The electrodes you got are possibly copper, or maybe more likely copper-tungsten (would have a silvery cast to it). I never seemed to have much luck with graphite on D10's or E110's. The electrode wear with graphite was a lot more than you would expect.

    I think the only water connections would be on the tank/pump unit. Only dielectric and hydraulic connections are on the machine itself.

    Kevin

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    well i was going to suggest that before you buy it, check to ensure that the hydraulic cylinder does not leak fluid...... if so, she's a goner.....

    and yes, the bellows on the z axis do fill up with hydraulic fluid....this is normal.
    Last edited by mdynac; 11-28-2007 at 11:56 PM. Reason: more bad spelling


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