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Thread: Deckel DE10

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    Default Deckel DE10

    Hi Guys,
    I am new to the forum. I just registered because I need some help.

    I am quite new to EDM and I have not much experience yet. Until now, I only worked with a very tiny EDM machine, which doesn't even have proper displays for the X and Y axes, basically this machine is only useful to remove broken taps... but I use it to make some parts for hobby purposes. But it is quite a hassle. So I was excited when a friend offered me a Deckel DE10 EDM machine. I think I am going to buy the machine, it is not extremely expensive and just for hobby this would be okay. But I have the problem that the manuals are missing. Since I am not an expert in EDM I think it would be handy to have the manuals in advance, before I buy the machine... further I also wonder whether the schematics are available.

    Does someone have the manuals / schematics in PDF format?

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    Hi mrta:
    I would be very careful about spending money on this machine.
    I say so because to the best of my knowledge it is an orphan.
    In the EDM world, this means no parts, no support, no advice from other users...in short, you're entirely on your own.

    EDM machines tend to become flakey after a certain time in service; when you consider how big the electrical currents are that the machine has to control it's not surprising to me that the electronics eventually stop working.

    This model was a CNC machine from the late 1980's to early 1990's I believe, and so far as I know was never very popular in North America.
    In Europe the situation may be very different, so your home base in Switzerland may make all the difference as to how many users there are and what sort of support to expect, but I'd certainly look very closely at what help you can get before spending any money.

    The fact remains, however, that with a machine this old and never known as a big player in the EDM world, I doubt very much that you'd have any chance of fixing it easily if even a single circuit board stops working.
    Having no operating manuals makes it a double hazard to buy in my opinion.
    Don't even dream about getting schematics...every EDM machine manufacturer guards them like they were gold and will have to kill you if they let you have a peek!
    I'd stay far far away from this machine.

    With your home base in Switzerland, I'd be looking for an Agie or a Charmilles.
    They were the two biggest producers of this kind of technology and are well supported in the grey market even though the companies themselves will no longer support the real oldies.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

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    Default

    Hi Marcus

    many thanks for your hints.

    I can imagine that those machines sometimes get flakey - I am an electronics engineer and worked for several years in the development of high power electronics up to 150A for electromagnets. Usually the electronics is quite robust, but with aging, some contacts or capacitors etc. become worse...

    I would love a Agie or Charmilles, but these cost, even when 30 yrs old, still a fortune. The DE10, on the other hand, is much cheaper (and thanks to your hint, I now know the reason!).
    So, do you know whether the schematics for the machine are available? I think if they are available, it should be possible to repair the machine, but obviously, if the manufacturer never released the schematics, the machine is almost useless. However, you said even for the Charmilles or Agie there are no schematics, so it will be also impossible to repair these :-(
    BTW, this particular DE10 we are talking about is from 1994.

    Even though it IS possible for some kind of errors. My tiny EDM machine, a "Concept EDM" from the UK, being older than me (it is from 1988) was possible to repair. A chip on one of the circuit boards failed, but the chip is still manufactured today, so it was a piece of cake to repair this particular board. But of course I have no idea about how the DE10 is constructed.

    What would you say is the DE10 worth, considering it is an 'orphan'? it comes with a lot of accessories, like different materials for electrodes, and it also comes oil-filled. So should be ready to use, I hope ;-)

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    Hi again mrta:
    Since you are capable of board level repairs and obviously have skill in electronic diagnosis you have a strong advantage over someone like me who is totally reliant upon others to fix whatever ails my machines.

    The fact also, that you are doing this as a hobby and do not depend on the machine to keep customers satisfied also changes things a lot since a dead machine is a (fun?) challenge for you but a business-wrecker for me.

    Your residence in Switzerland is the third big game changer for you compared to me...as I look at Google hits for your machine, I notice that the market presence of these machines was mostly in Europe and it seems very few made it across the pond to North America, so you may find you have a good support network there that is nonexistent here, but I'd find out first by spending time on internet chat groups like this one.

    Things specific to old CNC sinkers that you need to be aware of:
    1) The mechanical sub systems on these machines are almost always in virtually perfect condition, because these machines are never subjected to the forces that a milling machine or other chip making equipment would see, with the single exception of the ballscrew, ballnut and thrust bearings for the ram which sees a disproportionate amount of movement compared to the other axes.

    2) The electronics is typically divided into four categories which act interdependently.
    You have:
    a) a system to make sparks and control their characteristics
    b) a system to move the machine tables around in response to explicit commands
    c) a system to monitor the conditions in the spark gap and adjust the motion commanded by system b) to stay within condition boundaries set by instructions to the control either explicitly by the operator or automatically by the control from variables like "desired finish" or " minimum wear" etc etc.
    d) support electronics for pumps and lights and tank level sensors etc etc.

    You have in EDM, the unique circumstance of high voltages and high currents, metaphorically (and physically) right next to sensitive motion control and it all happens in a harsh environment with conductive dirt and crap all over the place, coating the boards and playing hell with everything.

    So the principal point of vulnerability is the functioning of all these subsystems together...a failure anywhere and she won't work at all.

    You must be a confident diagnostician with a good understanding of how the bits all play together to have a hope of getting the machine running again when the monitor stays black after you turn on the power button.

    The things that are unique to your candidate machine I cannot begin to tell you about; I've never run a Deckel and I've never even seen one in the wild.
    That's why experienced folk will be so valuable to you, so I encourage you to go out on the internet in Europe and see what numbers of shops are still running these machines and what they typically have to do when one of their machines shits the bed.
    That information will tell you everything you need to know about whether to buy or not.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
    Last edited by implmex; 02-08-2019 at 05:09 PM.

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    Default

    I ran one for a few years. The machine itself is a great design, very robust. However, the electronics are ancient. The interface was painful. I was able to get the rs232 working to send a program out to see the format, then I programmed everything in Notepad on a PC and sent programs back to control. Honestly, that machine is really not worth anything.

    I was able to get help from Xenon in Germany. They actually sent me electronic schematic scans and a few other things I needed when I was setting it up for my company years back.

    Pretty cool project. But in my opinion there is better machines to buy for a hobby.


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