Fanuc or Makino ?

Looking at both wire EDM machines to replace a Mitsubishi FA10. I'm convinced either will do the job for us as far as precision and capabilities. I'm used to a wire chopper, but neither Fanuc or Makino reccomend it. The core stitch from Fanuc isn't that interesting to me, much more concerned about dependability of threading the wire. Both distributors and applications are pretty even in my mind. I haven't got final pricing yet, but $5 or $10k difference on the machine isn't going to matter. I know a shop that has one of each and they really like both of them. Anyone else that has run both care to give an opinion?

I haven't personally run a Makino, but we have had multiple salesman in here trying to sell us one.

I have run Charmilles, Mits, Sodick, Chmer and Fanuc, and I definitely prefer the Fanuc.

If your main issue is cost, I don't think you can beat the Fanuc. The main line of Makino are pretty high end and expensive, though nice machines. The Makinos that are down in the low to mid 100k range are, as far as I know, more of a value line for them and I would never buy one of those over a Fanuc.

We have 15 wire machines here, and in the past few years we have made moves to standardize on Fanuc machines. They are reasonably priced, the service is excellent, and the control is easy to use. Threader works very well.

I agree about the core stitch. We just picked up a C400 iB with that function and I doubt we'll ever use it.

wdevine said:

I haven't personally run a Makino, The Makinos that are down in the low to mid 100k range are, as far as I know, more of a value line for them and I would never buy one of those over a Fanuc.

Click to expand...

Ok, as fa ras I know:
Don't have hands-on experience with Fanuc, but a customer of mine has a Fanuc and two Mitsubishis, and they do prefer the Fanuc.

In my case however, the U3 I have is absolutely flawless.
I have the Pico guides ( round ) instead of the split type V guides, and the threader is insanely reliable.
May not ( nor is it advertised as such ) be capable of threading into the kerf, but .03 holes I routinely thread into.
You have 3 threading modes, the "Fast" one is sickeningly quick but it depends on things like how close you're to an edge or wire type, but it shoots the wire through in 4 seconds.
The middle setting is gently pushing the wire until it's seen in the lower contact, then switches to high speed. perhaps 8 or so second.
The lowest setting is slow all the way through, but nearly 100% accurate, and I mean that.
If however you need to manually thread ( yes, we all know there are such instances ), you won't need to enable,disable, disconnect, monkey with anything.
There is a manual thread button, readily available whenever you need it.

As far as machine accuracy, the stock techs are deadly to a tenth. If you need to split tenths, then you probably wouldn't ask about a Fanuc anyway.
The techs are overwhelming to say the least, but can be figured out and adjusted for oddball stuff.

Reliability .... 3 years, no need to call or have anyone come out for anything. Had a couple of sw updates, but it was more of a coincidental, "well, we're in the neighborhood anyway
so might as well stop by and upgrade if you want to" kind of update.

Consumables and their lifetime is very reasonable. Power contacts, tension roller and the upper/lower "close" fluscup lips are pretty much the only thing you need on hand.

Maintenance is also reasonable, pretty easy to get things apart, quick clean and re-assemble.

I too miss the wire chopper, but have seen the pictures and description of Makino's version. I understand that they don't like to recommend it, but do not understand why.
I have 2 Brothers with choppers, and they only need emptying the bin and index a set of $20 ceramic inserts ( 16 times ) every 20 or so hours.
The Makino chopper looks very very much like the Brothers, so do not see why that would be an issue.

If you got specific questions on anything, feel free to ask.

( My only wish is that they somehow add a "BACK" function ....... )

Currently running a Makino U6, it's very user friendly.

uses Pico guides

RJT,

Can I help you with any additional information on the Makino machine? Since it was brought up, I would like to provide some additional information on the Makino machine on the HOW and WHY we do not need a Wire Chopper...

On the Makino rear Ceramic Pinch Roller system, we both CLEAN and DRY the wire before it passes through the rollers. The most critical item is the DRYING of the wire, which allows the rollers to properly grip and pull the spent wire. Since the wire is dry, there is no slippage of the rollers against the wire, which allows the wire to coil up nicely in the large collection bin. As a result of the EDM process, the spent wire is also pulling out dirt and debris from the cut zone before it passes through the Pinch Rollers. This dirt and debris is a very abrasive substance (think of lapping compound) that can dirty and degrade the life of the Pinch Rollers, so the Makino system CLEANS and DRYS the wire before passing it through the Pinch Rollers. The end result is a system that requires less maintenance, has less consumable wear items, and has a much longer operational life, and these are attractive characteristics to both operators and shop owners.

Many competitive designs will expose the Pinch Rollers to wet and dirty wire, and also directly expose the rollers and bearings to the water and debris. This will degrade the service life of both the roller and bearings, and also allow the wire to slip against the rollers. Once slippage of the wire occurs, the wire is stressed and will no longer lay flat. This is similar to running a ribbon against a knife edge or scissor…you end up with a wire that resembles a curly fry and that will not lay flat. If the wire cannot lie flat, it will eventually tangle around itself and create a rats nest or bundle that will short and stop the machine. To prevent the tangled mess of wire that is caused by a result of wire slippage against the pinch rollers, many machines incorporate a Wire Chopper as a stop-gap and Band-Aid measure. Rather than address the wire stress issue that are the result of roller slippage, a Wire Chopper is employed to continuously cut and minimize the length of wire that is extended out from the Pinch Rollers…effectively preventing the wire from becoming tangled.

The reality of Wire Chopper Units is that they do not enhance or add value to the work piece or detail that is being produced. A Wire Chopper can correct or mask certain machine design flaws that would otherwise suffer from a reliability issue, but Wire Chopper units also come with additional maintenance and replacement part requirements. I will concede one benefit of a Wire Chopper, which is increasing the amount of wire that can fit into the wire bin. Makino’s current design uses a large bin that is on wheels, and this bin can hold well over 100 lbs. of unchopped wire, and I have not met anyone that wants to deal with a 250 lbs. loaded win bin!  As a matter of personal preference, I prefer to empty a win bin of unchopped wire where I can easily grab and transfer the wire into a 55 gallon drum or plastic garbage bags for recycling. I have operated machines with wire choppers, and I do not miss the “pins and needles” and mess that is associated with Wire Choppers, and I certainly do not miss the added maintenance.

Interestingly, Makino DOES have a Wire Chopper option, but we have never sold one in North America. With an understanding of the function of the Makino Pinch Roller system and the non-benefit of a Wire Chopper, most customers come to the realization that they would be better served investing the money $$$$ they would spend on a Wire Chopper towards something like Work Holding Tooling that will provide a greater benefit to their operations with a Makino Wire EDM. Thanks for reading!

-Brian

Brian,
Thanks for the information, our distibutor out of Greenville had given me that same information as well. A couple question, where does the debris from cleaning the wire go, back into the tank, or is it somehow separated? I know you have 2 different guide systems a V and a round guide. Is one more reliable for threading? Are they only available on certain models? I'm sure the applications guy at the distributor could answer, but as long as you offered...

RJT,

The debris from cleaning of the wire gets routed back into the dirty reservoir tank of the machine where it is then picked up and removed by the filtration system. Either guide system (V-Guide or PICO Round Guide) will provide the same level of accuracy, but they offer different levels of maintenance and service life. The V-Guide system offers the easiest maintenance and the lowest cost of operation, as the guides have a warranty of 12,000 machining hours, and will provide excellent threading reliability. The PICO guides are also easily maintained when compared to other traditional round guide designs, and they provide more reliable small hole wire threading (high speed threading of holes in the 0.020~0.030" range). As like other round guide systems, the PICO guides will last 2,000 ~ 3,000 hours before replacement.

The Makino U3 and U3 HEAT machines can be Factory ordered in any guide configuration, but we typically stock the U3 with the PICO Round Guide system and the U3 HEAT with the V-Guide system. Both machine models achieve the same level of accuracy and surface finish capability, but the HEAT version can achieve faster Roughing speeds due to having more flushing horsepower, and both models are using dual digitally controlled flush pumps. The HEAT machine includes a larger 4 filter filtration system, larger dual flush pumps, larger capacity chiller unit, and a 4-sided work table. We typically see the U3 machines applied to Die/Mold type applications, and the U3 HEAT utilized for more production applications.

What type of parts are you machining, and what are your primary needs in a new machine?


-Brian

We are a job shop, we make custom tooling and gages, so a lot of 1 -5 of a kind parts. A lot of interrupted cuts, multiple threading, oddball stuff. Dowel holes in hardened work pieces, lots of fingers, and grippers. Most of the time multiple passes for accuracy or finish, most of my parts are 2" high or less, but occasionally 6 -8 inches tall. We have well developed post from MasterCam that we transfer from our server to the machines (all hard wired). I'm going to prepare a simple test piece and have a demo done while I am there at both distributors to get a feel for applications support.