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Heavy Duty Wire EDM?

Archer120x

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Location
Davis Junction, Illinois
Is there something like a heavy duty wire EDM? I'm thinking more accurate than a waterjet, but no where near as precise as the wire EDM's I have been around. Maybe use .025 welding wire at higher currents? I would like to cut more complex geometries in thick hard plate.
 
Archer120x,

Makino has recently introduced 0.016" wire capability on the U6 HEAT Extreme machine, and this provides significantly high cutting speeds without an increase in wire consumption. The use of 0.016" wire is targeted primarily as 1-Pass Roughing Applications, but we have developed 2-Pass conditions to provide improved surface finish and accuracy. Even with 1-Pass Machining, the 0.016" wire technology can provide 0.001" accuracy.

Below are a few links to a published article on this technology and also a Web-Event. Please let me know if you have any further questions or if you would like to talk live in more detail about this...thanks!

-Brian

Article: Summer 2019 EDM Today

Web-Event: U6 H.E.A.T. Extreme Webcast | Makino
 
Archer120x,

Makino has recently introduced 0.016" wire capability on the U6 HEAT Extreme machine, and this provides significantly high cutting speeds without an increase in wire consumption. The use of 0.016" wire is targeted primarily as 1-Pass Roughing Applications, but we have developed 2-Pass conditions to provide improved surface finish and accuracy. Even with 1-Pass Machining, the 0.016" wire technology can provide 0.001" accuracy.

Below are a few links to a published article on this technology and also a Web-Event. Please let me know if you have any further questions or if you would like to talk live in more detail about this...thanks!

-Brian

Article: Summer 2019 EDM Today

Web-Event: U6 H.E.A.T. Extreme Webcast | Makino

My finish requirements probably align with your "one pass roughing".
 
Hi Archer 120x:
Here's a reality check on your hopes:
Makino's Heat extreme seems to cut at about 56 square inches per hour, based on the data I can see in the article referenced by Brian in EDM Today magazine (it doesn't actually TELL you but it shows a sample and compares 0.016" wire with 0.010" wire so you can make a rough calculation with a few assumptions.)

That's bloody fast for a wire EDM, but it's instructive to take that super fast cutting rate and apply it to your parts:
Suppose your part is 10" thick, 48" long and 6" wide.
The cut is 1080 square inches if you can get away with single pass precision and finish.
That is best case, 19 hours in the cut and for a 10" tall block I doubt you can reach that speed because your ability to flush the cut falls off significantly as the part thickness increases.
So you may well be a third slower, which means 30 hours in the cut.

In addition you need to use the super special (and super expensive) Bedra wire to make it go.
Bedra wire is never cheap...Last time I bought Bedra stratified wire it cost a few hundred bucks a spool compared to commodity brass wire (Firewire) at about 70 bucks a spool.
I don't know what the consumption on this part will be but I'd budget at least a thousand bucks in consumable costs and power.

So for a thousand bucks in hard costs and 30 hours of run time per part, are we still talking a realistic production scenario.

Mind you this is all unattended time...once you load the machine, set it up and program it, you can just let it run totally unattended overnight.
So if you set it up on Monday morning, you can take the finished part off the machine on Tuesday afternoon.

Does that work for you?
How are you doing it now?
What's your current cost, and are you getting parts of the quality you need at a rate you can live with?

The answers to those questions will determine whether you give Brian a call to negotiate a machine sale.
I will say that Makino enjoys a superb reputation for building top notch machines, and I believe Brian when he tells you it's the fastest on the market.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
 
I cut a 5" can on our mits a few months ago. I needed to do it in one pass and make sure there were no witness lines that adaptive can leave sometimes. I used a strong maxed out vg epack and was able to do around .05 ipm. I don't know the exact distance but it took about 6 or 7 hours to cut. I used regular 1018 steel.
 
Hi plastikdreams:
So you were able to cut at about 15 square inches per hour, which aligns pretty well with what I can do on my vintage 2011 machine using 0.010" wire.
Best I've ever done and recorded (in steel) was 27 square inches per hour on a 1" tall block, and that was after extensive tweaking and accepting more wire breaks and etc etc.

Measured against that, the 56 square inches per hour (if my assumptions are reasonable...Brian can give us a better idea if he will...hint hint to Brian) is blisteringly fast for a wire.

If the OP can live with the realities of what a wire cut part will actually cost, I don't think he can do better than this no matter what machine he gets; so if he can justify the price, and if he can actually put a 48" long piece of steel 10" thick on the machine and cut all the way around it, I would be pretty confident he's going to be happy with the Makino and I will be envious as Hell.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
 
Thanks for all the info. I think the consumable cost is going to be a roadblock. To be clear, the work piece may be up to 4 feet long, but I might only have to cut (deep) features along one edge of it. One I have in mind looks like a 10 inch thick comb with 1 inch wide 7 inch deep slots. This is all an effort to avoid long tools in the mill. I'm always open and looking for new methods.
 
Hi Archer120x:
Before you abandon the idea, please be sure what I say is actually reasonably true.
Never forget, I was speculating wildly about the speed at which it cuts, the cost of the wire, the capacity of the machine etc etc.
I wrote it to help you to ask the relevant questions about wire EDM and offered what I think are some reasonable ballparks.

It's worthwhile to find out what the true costs for any of your parts are actually going to be.
You can then compare the real cost including the amortization of the machine (once you know how much it actually costs delivered to your door and installed and running) to the cost of how you are doing it now, and decide if the ROI is worth it to you.

I can imagine from the little you've described, that a machinist making chips is going to spend a couple of days gnawing away on this too.
If you can do it on a wire, you save the cost of his wages, and the cost of the consumables he uses up, plus the cost of the extra stock he has to turn into chips that could MAYBE be saved on the wire by nesting parts close together and using creative workholding to reduce waste stock.
You also get to run it unattended overnight.
In fact, of all the machining technologies out there, wire EDM is one of the easiest by far to implement lights-out machining with.

Against that, the cost of the consumables is trivial...if you mill it you'll use up a good bit of cash on carbide too, and in the sizes you're describing that's not cheap either.

So I encourage you to speak with Brian, let him make the case, find out if I've been bullshitting you or not, and then make your decision.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
 
Hi plastikdreams:
So you were able to cut at about 15 square inches per hour, which aligns pretty well with what I can do on my vintage 2011 machine using 0.010" wire.
Best I've ever done and recorded (in steel) was 27 square inches per hour on a 1" tall block, and that was after extensive tweaking and accepting more wire breaks and etc etc.

Measured against that, the 56 square inches per hour (if my assumptions are reasonable...Brian can give us a better idea if he will...hint hint to Brian) is blisteringly fast for a wire.

If the OP can live with the realities of what a wire cut part will actually cost, I don't think he can do better than this no matter what machine he gets; so if he can justify the price, and if he can actually put a 48" long piece of steel 10" thick on the machine and cut all the way around it, I would be pretty confident he's going to be happy with the Makino and I will be envious as Hell.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

Ours is a mid 2000s fx10. Biggest issue with tall cuts is flushing. I tend to turn the wire speed up a tad as well.
 
I'm looking to cut 500 Brinell steel up to 10 inches thick to within ~.010" profile tolerance.

We have cut 20" tall custom press brake parts out of hardened steel with the reciprocating moly machine.
Tall.jpg
Consumable cost is about $1 per hour because the Moly wire is reused.
Cuts faster than conventional WEDM in poor flushing conditions.
Accuracy is better than .001
Machine cost is much lower than a conventional WEDM of the same size.

Your application looks like a great fit for this machine and we would be happy to test cut samples for you.
[email protected]
 
We have cut 20" tall custom press brake parts out of hardened steel with the reciprocating moly machine.
View attachment 306856
Consumable cost is about $1 per hour because the Moly wire is reused.
Cuts faster than conventional WEDM in poor flushing conditions.
Accuracy is better than .001
Machine cost is much lower than a conventional WEDM of the same size.

Oh Jolly!
So you can cut a 20" tall workpiece, flush-only to an accuracy of .001.
And to boot, you can do it faster than any other WireEDM!
All that above, with only $1.00/hour in consumables!

I think you should run for office! ( you will have a much better chance finding believers among the great unwashed for your BS )
 
No need to get too wound up, I know this type of machine is radically different than any WEDM most have seen or used. We have been in the EDM business since 1980. We have a machine that we use for demonstrations and test cutting and the main application is to cut off 3D metal printed parts off off build plates. the part in the attached picture took 8 hours to cut off on a conventional WEDM because of the poor flushing conditions and the HB cut if off in 54 minutes. This customer has 25 machines printing metal parts and bought a large HB with 20" Z Axis after this test cut.
2019-06-12 14.55.57.jpg
Another recent installation went in to a company that has 50 conventional WEDM'S and they purchased the HB800 to cut the 20" tall custom parts out of blocks of hardened steel.
 

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To clarify, the wire reciprocates from a precision spool on the back of the machine, it used .007 Molybdenum wire that runs faster and can take more power. the wire does degrade slowly and will typically last 80 hours before re-loading the machine. a roll of wire costs $115 and reloads the machine 4-5 times. the wire does lose diameter during the 80 hours thus is not as accurate as a conventional WEDM that only uses the wire once. Also the machine does not do automatic wire threading, it stays threaded in a complete loop back to the spool and re-winds as it un-winds. your can manually thread a part and then start but it is about a 5 minute process. Yes it is non-submerged and the speed the wire runs draws the low pressure flush with the additive in to the part.
If you have a part that you would like test cut we are always ready to do that especially 3D metal printed parts.
 
Oh Jolly!
So you can cut a 20" tall workpiece, flush-only to an accuracy of .001.
And to boot, you can do it faster than any other WireEDM!
All that above, with only $1.00/hour in consumables!

I think you should run for office! ( you will have a much better chance finding believers among the great unwashed for your BS )

This is the 20" part
Tall Block HR.jpg
 
Since it's Show & Tell time...here is a 20.0" Tall Aluminum Part I did.

2 Pass Machining with 0.012" Brass Wire - 0.0003" Total Straightness (0.000015" Per Side).

This utilized custom settings to achieve, but it 100% repeatable, and cycle time can be reduced if a lower accuracy level is acceptable.

We had this as a Sample Part at IMTS a few times and let customer's handle and check it with a micrometer.

20 Inch Tall Part.jpg

-Brian
 








 
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