Has anyone heard much about the Makino U6 Heat Extreme wire EDM? It's suppose to have a .016" wire option with extra power generator. Hearing rumors of double cutting speeds or more. Has anyone heard anything about this, if it is true?? That could be a game changer!
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Largest Manufacturing Technology Community on the Web
Stay Connected:
Makino U6 Extreme Double Cutting Speeds??
- Thread starter JamieL
- Start date
- Replies 21
- Views 5,086
agieman
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2010
- Location
- New England
I have a customer that has one. Cuts fast but not to accurate.
I've herd the same as agieman stated. They can cut fast, but don't plan on skim cuts or high precision.
quadzilla87
Aluminum
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2015
Its good for using like a bandsaw. Makino says you cant retro the older U6's either, so pony up for a whole new machine. If I remember right it uses a servo for wire tension that's supposed to be better than their old powder clutch type.
Yeah the speed with the .016” sounds like huge benefit with thick parts that don’t need that .0002” accuracies. It still functions as a Makino wire otherwise with all the standard accuracies using a .003-.012”. Is your friend happy with the speeds he’s seeing? Do you know what he’s cutting by chance? We do a lot of aerospace and printed parts that need the baseplate cut off. This could be a very versatile machine if it is as advertised. But it’s gotta hit those performances metrics.
I asked that question too. They said it was on the premium end of the wire spectrum. But if you’re getting significant speeds increase it makes you for the cost. I’m sure the wire prices will come down too. It’s a new product. It’s always got a premium when it comes out.
Also, we have an older Duo 64. We’re thinking of trading it in against the Extreme or selling it.
agieman
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2010
- Location
- New England
cutting aluminium 12 in tall or better. there was very little tec for any material. operator told me that after main cut he stepped in .005in. for a trim and it did not clean it all up. JamieL, with that amount of difference top to bottom you will spend some time grinding your plates back to flat after cutting off grown parts. I did cuts with a GF Cut E 350 .012 wire and could leave .001in on plate uniformly making the regrind process much easier. Also take a look at the GF AM 500 for cutting grown parts, it reuses moly? wire and travels horizontally allowing parts to drop into a basket. Here is a video AgieCharmilles CUT AM 500 - Horizontal Wire EDM for Additive Manufacturing - GF Machining Solutions - YouTube
if you are cutting metal printed parts off of the base plates nothing compares to the reciprocating moly machine.
on a conventional WEDM this took 8 hours and the reciprocating moly machine took 58 minuites.
For more info contact [email protected]
on a conventional WEDM this took 8 hours and the reciprocating moly machine took 58 minuites.
For more info contact [email protected]
Attachments
I’ve seen the AM 500. It’s interesting with the recirculating moly and being inverted. But it’s a 1trick pony and that technology isn’t anything new. I’ve seen some Chinese molybdenum machines doing the same thing. Not very accurate, but doing the same thing. We’re a job shop and can’t invest in a strictly baseplate cutoff machine. The Makino allows you to have turbo speed when you have thick parts and don’t need the tight tolerance and standard Makino speed and accuracy for the rest.
I’ll have to reach out about the technologies for different thicknesses and materials. But as with anything new, it’s a process. They're going to put me in touch with one of their customers who’s currently using two of them. I’ve heard some pretty ridiculous speed claims. I’ll ask about how they’re managing with the plate cutoffs, if they’re chasing with the grinder. Best to get it from them rather than a salesman.
The HB400, HB600, HB800 moly machines run the wire in the normal position and are lower cost machines. they can be used for any part cut off and the benefits are very low consumable cost, faster cutting, and lower machine purchase cost. the downside is no automatic threading and not as accurate.
you can see a video presentation on the EDM Tech Center website
you can see a video presentation on the EDM Tech Center website
SeymourDumore
Diamond
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2005
- Location
- CT
I respectfully call
on that one.Don't know about the Extreme, but on a U3 I can cut a 7" ball into a 3" thick rod end and have approx .002 total deviation on either side with a .01 wire with a one-cut strategy.
You tell me (us) that the Charmilles will cut a 12" tall part to a total of .001 straightness on a print-trim .....
Now, if I can just guess at the usage of the Extreme....
Taking the U3 that I know as a base, I am relatively certain that the machine will be accurate-enough for a rough-only cut to no more than .002 ( reasonable conditions assumed )
If OTOH one is considering the Extreme for the purpose of reducing the rough-cut times but still achieve the usual finish tolerance requirements as expected from all other standard
Makino machines, rest assured that the Extreme machine is actually a Real McCoy V-guide Makino U6 with the addition of the "Extreme" circuitry.
So basically once you're done with the rough cut, you will be switching to the appropriate (.012, .010 or whatever ) wire and do your skims with the normal cutting conditions and generator,
and you will be receiving the incredible accuracies every other Makino U-series users expect.
cameraman
Diamond
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2014
I respectfully call
Don't know about the Extreme, but on a U3 I can cut a 7" ball into a 3" thick rod end and have approx .002 total deviation on either side with a .01 wire with a one-cut strategy.
You tell me (us) that the Charmilles will cut a 12" tall part to a total of .001 straightness on a print-trim .....
Now, if I can just guess at the usage of the Extreme....
Taking the U3 that I know as a base, I am relatively certain that the machine will be accurate-enough for a rough-only cut to no more than .002 ( reasonable conditions assumed )
If OTOH one is considering the Extreme for the purpose of reducing the rough-cut times but still achieve the usual finish tolerance requirements as expected from all other standard
Makino machines, rest assured that the Extreme machine is actually a Real McCoy V-guide Makino U6 with the addition of the "Extreme" circuitry.
So basically once you're done with the rough cut, you will be switching to the appropriate (.012, .010 or whatever ) wire and do your skims with the normal cutting conditions and generator,
and you will be receiving the incredible accuracies every other Makino U-series users expect.
That's what I thought too ? But didn't find the time to really re read the thread 5 times to figure out the OP somehow thinks that normal finer passes are not possible on a machine with the H.E.A.T capability. It's an additional capability not an either or capability.
I have a ton of data sheets for notional cut times but OP indicated he's going to connect with 'Peeps" that already have a U6i with H.E.A.T. capability etc.
I was wondering what was going on here...
Maybe a bit of pre- [Cancelled IMTS 2020]- FUD lol.
I respectfully call
Don't know about the Extreme, but on a U3 I can cut a 7" ball into a 3" thick rod end and have approx .002 total deviation on either side with a .01 wire with a one-cut strategy.
You tell me (us) that the Charmilles will cut a 12" tall part to a total of .001 straightness on a print-trim .....
Now, if I can just guess at the usage of the Extreme....
Taking the U3 that I know as a base, I am relatively certain that the machine will be accurate-enough for a rough-only cut to no more than .002 ( reasonable conditions assumed )
If OTOH one is considering the Extreme for the purpose of reducing the rough-cut times but still achieve the usual finish tolerance requirements as expected from all other standard
Makino machines, rest assured that the Extreme machine is actually a Real McCoy V-guide Makino U6 with the addition of the "Extreme" circuitry.
So basically once you're done with the rough cut, you will be switching to the appropriate (.012, .010 or whatever ) wire and do your skims with the normal cutting conditions and generator,
and you will be receiving the incredible accuracies every other Makino U-series users expect.
Yeah, this was my thoughts too with switching out the .016” guides and skimming with .012”/.010”. Something I’ve learned, this machine is a round guide machine which eliminates the need for a vertical alignment after switching guides. That’s huge for the idea of removing material fast in the roughing process and finishing with a finer wire. It’s not the standard “V” guide system on the U6 HEAT. The V guides, with all their benefits, would need a vertical alignment when you switch the guides. Seems like Makino really thought this one through.
By OP, if you’re referring to me, I never assumed you couldn’t use finer wires. I know it’s additional tech on top of a standard U6HEAT. My purpose for this post is to see if it’s the game changer that Makino says it is. It their claims are true it seems like a revolutionary machine.
Brian Pfluger
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Location
- Auburn Hills, MI
EDM Peeps,
Time for some technical details on Makino's HEAT Extreme 0.016" wire technology from the source...it’s designed for SPEED with reasonable accuracy and wire consumption. Makino is promoting the 0.016” technology as being x2 to x3 faster than 0.010” wire, and this is a conservative figure, as the end benefits are dictated by the part application. In general, the taller the part is, the greater the benefits of the 0.016” wire, but the more significant performance gains come with parts that are 2.0” and higher in thickness. There is still a speed improvement with parts under 2” thick using 0.016” wire, but the performance gains are less significant with parts under 2” thick due to the limits imposed by the physics of spark density (you can only apply so much power to a given area).
From an accuracy standpoint using standard 0.016” settings, we have seen 0.001” straightness per-side with 1-Pass Machining, and this baseline was established machining a D2 Tool Steel Stamping Punch. See the attached image showing the cycle time differences and wire consumption between 0.010” and 0.016” wire on this punch, and this represents a practical “real-world” part this has some geometry to it (we’re not talking about straight line machining). Makino has developed the 0.016” wire technology to consume a similar hourly poundage of wire as when running 0.010” wire, as our thinking was to develop the 0.016” wire settings with a practical approach. The 0.016” HEAT Extreme technology can actually cut faster than the standard settings that have been developed, and we chose to create these with a productive and practical mix of speed and reasonable accuracy…with low wire consumption.
The Per Hour wire consumption rate of the 0.016” wire settings is about 0.75 lbs., so a 22 lbs. spool of 0.016” wire will last 30 hours. This fact alone is amazing, as the wire consumption speed is significantly slower than what is seen with 0.010” operation, but yet still comes will a huge boost in speed. Think about it, the Cross-Section Area of the 0.016” wire is 2.5x times greater than that of 0.010” wire, so the amount of additional material and weight in the wire should significantly increase the wire consumption rate, which directly impacts manufacturing cost. The practical approach to 0.016” wire development that Makino has embraced delivers a significant increase to machining speeds (x2 to x3 times faster) with little to no change in the hourly wire consumption rate. This approach should help shops easily see and realize the savings potential this technology represents.
Makino has developed 2-Pass Machining settings for 0.016” wire for Brass and Coated wires for Steel and Aluminum materials, and these settings have been created for Good Flush and Bad Flushing conditions. The developed Skim Cut settings are a hot skim, and while it does improve the overall accuracy of the part to 0.0005” straightness land, there is less of a benefit to surface finish improvement. The primary goal of the 0.016” wire Skim Cut is to improve the looks and ascetics of the part, as this removes the heavy debris line that is seen in all Wire EDM Rough Cut passes. The 0.016” Skim Cut will produce a rougher surface finish than other Makino wire size technologies, but this is still a respectable 80~90uinRa finish out of the machine (1 Skim Cut settings – 2 Pass Total Machining - using 0.010” or 0.012” wire on Makino will produce a 60~70uinRa finish out of the machine). While it is technically feasible for the 0.016” wire to perform additional skim cuts (3 or 4 Pass Machining), Makino feels that this is unnecessary as this begins to negate the overall speed and costs savings benefits of this technology. A 2nd or 3rd Skim Pass (3 and 4 Pass Total Machining) requires lower generator power, and these power levels are the SAME for 0.016” as it would be for 0.010”, and the same fraction of the wire would be used for erosion. This means that 0.016” wire will Skim Cut at the same speed as 0.010” wire, but there will be greater cost and greater waste with the 0.016” wire (needlessly throwing away more wire). If greater precision or a finer surface finish is required, then using other available Precision-based technologies such as Makino’s 0.012” wire settings database might make more operational and economic sense.
As for the machine, the 0.016” wire capability is only available on the U6 HEAT Extreme model. This is a specialized machine that contains many modifications that enable 0.016” wire operation with the ability to thread this large wire size (the modifications are quite extensive, which is why this capability cannot be retrofit on an existing machine). The U6 HEAT Extreme model does represent a huge leap in performance with 0.016” wire capability, but it also provides game-changing versatility to a shop, as the machine can run wire sizes from 0.016” down to 0.004” and produce surface finishes down to 4uinRa if required. I have attached links below to a Makino Webinar on this technology and a link to a published article in EDM Today.
U6 H.E.A.T. Extreme Webcast | Makino
Summer 2019 EDM Today
- Brian
Time for some technical details on Makino's HEAT Extreme 0.016" wire technology from the source...it’s designed for SPEED with reasonable accuracy and wire consumption. Makino is promoting the 0.016” technology as being x2 to x3 faster than 0.010” wire, and this is a conservative figure, as the end benefits are dictated by the part application. In general, the taller the part is, the greater the benefits of the 0.016” wire, but the more significant performance gains come with parts that are 2.0” and higher in thickness. There is still a speed improvement with parts under 2” thick using 0.016” wire, but the performance gains are less significant with parts under 2” thick due to the limits imposed by the physics of spark density (you can only apply so much power to a given area).
From an accuracy standpoint using standard 0.016” settings, we have seen 0.001” straightness per-side with 1-Pass Machining, and this baseline was established machining a D2 Tool Steel Stamping Punch. See the attached image showing the cycle time differences and wire consumption between 0.010” and 0.016” wire on this punch, and this represents a practical “real-world” part this has some geometry to it (we’re not talking about straight line machining). Makino has developed the 0.016” wire technology to consume a similar hourly poundage of wire as when running 0.010” wire, as our thinking was to develop the 0.016” wire settings with a practical approach. The 0.016” HEAT Extreme technology can actually cut faster than the standard settings that have been developed, and we chose to create these with a productive and practical mix of speed and reasonable accuracy…with low wire consumption.
The Per Hour wire consumption rate of the 0.016” wire settings is about 0.75 lbs., so a 22 lbs. spool of 0.016” wire will last 30 hours. This fact alone is amazing, as the wire consumption speed is significantly slower than what is seen with 0.010” operation, but yet still comes will a huge boost in speed. Think about it, the Cross-Section Area of the 0.016” wire is 2.5x times greater than that of 0.010” wire, so the amount of additional material and weight in the wire should significantly increase the wire consumption rate, which directly impacts manufacturing cost. The practical approach to 0.016” wire development that Makino has embraced delivers a significant increase to machining speeds (x2 to x3 times faster) with little to no change in the hourly wire consumption rate. This approach should help shops easily see and realize the savings potential this technology represents.
Makino has developed 2-Pass Machining settings for 0.016” wire for Brass and Coated wires for Steel and Aluminum materials, and these settings have been created for Good Flush and Bad Flushing conditions. The developed Skim Cut settings are a hot skim, and while it does improve the overall accuracy of the part to 0.0005” straightness land, there is less of a benefit to surface finish improvement. The primary goal of the 0.016” wire Skim Cut is to improve the looks and ascetics of the part, as this removes the heavy debris line that is seen in all Wire EDM Rough Cut passes. The 0.016” Skim Cut will produce a rougher surface finish than other Makino wire size technologies, but this is still a respectable 80~90uinRa finish out of the machine (1 Skim Cut settings – 2 Pass Total Machining - using 0.010” or 0.012” wire on Makino will produce a 60~70uinRa finish out of the machine). While it is technically feasible for the 0.016” wire to perform additional skim cuts (3 or 4 Pass Machining), Makino feels that this is unnecessary as this begins to negate the overall speed and costs savings benefits of this technology. A 2nd or 3rd Skim Pass (3 and 4 Pass Total Machining) requires lower generator power, and these power levels are the SAME for 0.016” as it would be for 0.010”, and the same fraction of the wire would be used for erosion. This means that 0.016” wire will Skim Cut at the same speed as 0.010” wire, but there will be greater cost and greater waste with the 0.016” wire (needlessly throwing away more wire). If greater precision or a finer surface finish is required, then using other available Precision-based technologies such as Makino’s 0.012” wire settings database might make more operational and economic sense.
As for the machine, the 0.016” wire capability is only available on the U6 HEAT Extreme model. This is a specialized machine that contains many modifications that enable 0.016” wire operation with the ability to thread this large wire size (the modifications are quite extensive, which is why this capability cannot be retrofit on an existing machine). The U6 HEAT Extreme model does represent a huge leap in performance with 0.016” wire capability, but it also provides game-changing versatility to a shop, as the machine can run wire sizes from 0.016” down to 0.004” and produce surface finishes down to 4uinRa if required. I have attached links below to a Makino Webinar on this technology and a link to a published article in EDM Today.
U6 H.E.A.T. Extreme Webcast | Makino
Summer 2019 EDM Today
- Brian
cameraman
Diamond
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2014
^^^ Thanks for taking the time to put that together (really appreciate it).
So thanks @Brian Pfluger for putting that up there as that pretty much saved 5 hours of my life to reconstruct all of that and "Make a post" ~ and not from the "Horse's mouth" .
[I'm much more of a newcomer to wire-EDM than most of the "Peeps"/ folks that hang out here.]
^^^ That's pretty much the same conclusion I/ we / (my little group) came to at least for our application needs [At least combing through a 1000 pages of raw cut data / settings for U3/ U6 and H.E.A.T. ]. I.e. higher number of passes with an emphasis on straightness and surface finish for particular cuts, 6" tall D2 / tool steel and other. So for our purposes and total cycle time (with those additional passes) the U3_B / U3i seemed to fit the bill quite well for us (seemingly). I.e. the H.E.A.T. capability seemed slightly superfluous to our more immediate needs + extra expense.
Conversely (however), the one cofactor in the back of my mind is production shops that are deeply into Wire EDM (and related) is that to increase output, literal numbers of parts out the door every day / every week - seems to require a small army of wire-EDM machines to a pretty substantial cohort of machines in a large complex. I was wondering IF the H.E.A.T technology (in such a scenario) - potentially cuts down on the number of square-feet required and sheer number of machines required (for a much larger operation) ?
Haven't done the math on that yet (mainly as my group is "Small" right now ).
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
~ Wondering how that will fit into @JamieL's application and trajectory ?
agieman
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2010
- Location
- New England
hi, sorry been away from website. what i am saying is i can cut parts from a growth plate not cut a finished part. the actual cutting thickness is much less and varies over the cut. Regahding the Makino, a U6 with .016 wire option. this was over 6 months ago and ill bet they have newer tec that is much better. Also, the operator was really pushing for speed to see what it could do. I have the upmost respect for Makino machines and i'm sure using it in std mode it is as accurate as hell. we are talking about the.016 option. i haven't read Brian P's comments yet but as always im looking forward to reading them.
Seymour, im not sure what you mean by print-trim but i can cut a 9in tall part (E-350) on a charmilles with 3 trims and have it straight +-.0001 I would need a 600 size machine for 12 in.
Seymour, im not sure what you mean by print-trim but i can cut a 9in tall part (E-350) on a charmilles with 3 trims and have it straight +-.0001 I would need a 600 size machine for 12 in.
Brian Pfluger
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Location
- Auburn Hills, MI
agieman,
Makino has done quite a bit with 3D Printed Part Cut-offs, as our WEDM machines excel at poor flushing applications with our Digital Flushing configuration (x2 independent CNC controlled flush pumps). I've attached an image of a 3D Printed Part Cut-off process using the 0.016" (0.400mm) wire compared to 0.010” (0.250mm) wire. This part is relatively small in thickness and has many small 90-degree features and material thickness changes that typically create difficulties with the cut-off process. Due to the limited material thickness discharge area, the 0.016” wire advantages are a little bit smaller in the case, but still yield a 1.7x Faster Machining Speed and a 43% Reduction in Total Cycle Time that are a very real and significant improvement!
I also have to give a shout out to our friends at Linear AMS (Linear AMS | Custom Molding & Engineering Manufacturing Solutions) for producing this 3D Printed sample for Makino!
-Brian
Makino has done quite a bit with 3D Printed Part Cut-offs, as our WEDM machines excel at poor flushing applications with our Digital Flushing configuration (x2 independent CNC controlled flush pumps). I've attached an image of a 3D Printed Part Cut-off process using the 0.016" (0.400mm) wire compared to 0.010” (0.250mm) wire. This part is relatively small in thickness and has many small 90-degree features and material thickness changes that typically create difficulties with the cut-off process. Due to the limited material thickness discharge area, the 0.016” wire advantages are a little bit smaller in the case, but still yield a 1.7x Faster Machining Speed and a 43% Reduction in Total Cycle Time that are a very real and significant improvement!
I also have to give a shout out to our friends at Linear AMS (Linear AMS | Custom Molding & Engineering Manufacturing Solutions) for producing this 3D Printed sample for Makino!
-Brian
Brian, what are the rough outside dimensions of this part?
