Understanding workpiece location, setting program location etc.. Mits DWC110SZ - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    I like the collaberation you guys...

    A little Off Topic, but:

    Do any of you guys run Esprit Wire? Without paying for maintenance it seems like there isn't any good place to pick people's brains for solutions.

    Ward

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    Okay, long reply here, going in the order of posted responses:

    I think the one main thing Im running into that confuses me... Machine position sets itself at ZP Ret to X0Y0Z0U0V0, you can set Relative position to what ever, buy going up and changing the values. But is there any way, other than G92 or Offset call in the program to set the program position? I think that is tripping me up... MAYBE?

    Implex:
    I dont know if it assumes G54 - I sort of think so... but would think, since I had also set G54 as the same X0Y0 that I wanted, if that was the case - though it wasnt called, it would position to X0Y0 if I had moved it off. It doesnt move at all. But I see your point with it ignoring the G0 and then assuming G54 at the G92 line. Will research that.

    I cant say on the decimal and trailing zero, but can try and find out. . Definitely in Absolute - both on boot up of machine, and the G90 ahead of the G0. But will look in the book and verify both ABS/INC stuff and the decimal situation.

    Not sure I follow you when you say "Try making sure you've set your origin in G54 when you first touch off" - as in - just set G54 as the same X0Y0 Im looking for - right?

    I will also read up on formatting for the G54 call etx... make sure Im using the correct order. Ill experiement some when I have time... at the moment, need to get some parts run so Im no longer out of stock (been that way since last July :-O )
    Happy to be running even if only at 10% efficiency


    Zahnrad
    Not sure what you mean by "When you set your Origin, are you also clearing the registers?"
    When you say origin, you mean "Set Zero + Axis"? And what do you mean by "Registers?" Not familiar with that term from the book.

    The starting process according to Atchison (summarizing and going from memory - can verify when I get out to the shop), power on, rapid fill to flush back plate, Zero Point Return XYZ, move to align wire, align wire, zero out U & V, Set taper Z, when done hit reset twice. Ready to run.

    Now, one thing I can say, never once, did either Mike or the guy that came out to do some training (local guy), say anything about the different screens (Prog Pos, Rel Pos, MCN Pos, G54, etc..) So does it matter which screen your in when doing specific things? Never saw any reference to needing to do that in the books.

    Mike didnt write that program, the local guy did. At some point Ill ahve to get with someone on getting the wire threader working... seems presently, the main issue is the wire cutter leaving the wire end in bad shape. So it wouldnt thread if I wanted it to, and I it also acts differently when it tries to auto thread, than when you push the cut button in manual. But since Mike has never gotten back to me... Ill likely try your other contact that you sent me if its not something that can be worked through here on the forum. (but that will be a separate post for sure hehehe)


    dverstra
    I think I have a LOT of learning to go before I can understand your program... Ive read some in the book on programming, but man their examples suck... throwing in things out of the blue that have no relevance other than to confuse a guy trying to make sense of it... So I have not got a grasp on a lot of the differnent codes yet. But when I do, Ill be sure to revisit this.

    (side note - Red James - so far, the machine has never tried to rethread at X0Y0 on this program... it tries to rethread at X-.1 Y-.65 so not sure if the tie to G92 is the call in that line or the immediately following position?)


    Thanks again everyone for taking the time. Im eager to learn, and love this stuff even though I have little to no formal machinist training. (school of hard knocks, a day with a locak guy on the wire, and this place )

    Ill likely be starting another thread down the road bout the threader (AF2) with some pics and vids of the wire cut, but will wait to do that til after I have read more on the threader and got other settings correct.



    Wade

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    Program looks good to me that you posted, I don't see any reason it wouldn't work.

    A few things to add to your program, you aren't turning on/off the powermaster (M102/M101). You are also setting your Epack and feedrate at a strange place to me, I do it right after I turn on machining/wire/fluid. You also aren't turning off the machining, Wire ,Fluid (M85 M83 M81)

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    Wade, deverstra's MOVE program looks like it would make your program safe to start from anywhere...very cool.

    However, starting from a known position and having the G92 set your Program Coordinates is the most basic method.

    As far as screens on the Mits, you use the Setup screen and Relative to get into position, and then Monitor while you are running, generally.


    Ward

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilsurf View Post
    I like the collaberation you guys...

    A little Off Topic, but:

    Do any of you guys run Esprit Wire? Without paying for maintenance it seems like there isn't any good place to pick people's brains for solutions.

    Ward
    Ward
    We have a seat of Esprit which we use for 4 axis work and repetitive styles of programming. We do pay the yearly maintenance fee and feel that we get return on that investment. We program most of the punches and dies with Striker inside of Autocad.

    I don't have a lot of seat time with Esprit.

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    Espirit is a fine program. Of course there are less costly alternatives that work just as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EDM JOE View Post
    Espirit is a fine program. Of course there are less costly alternatives that work just as well.
    Joe
    We could probably debate this in another thread. I was just trying to respond to Ward.

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    Default Setting origin on Mits FX10K

    Hello,
    I know this is a very old thread, but I thought I'd see if anyone would see this and give me some advice. I just got a Mits FX10K and I'm having trouble getting started with it. I've been programming mills for 40 years and from what I have read here that is probably part of my problem. Of course I started out trying to set the zero using G54. Haven't been able to get that to work. I've read this whole thread and I've been looking at a bunch of programs on a disk that I got with the machine and it looks like no one uses G54. When I pick up the edge of my part how do I tell the machine that this is zero? I'm also a little confused about using G92. I understand needing to tell the machine where to re-thread if the wire breaks. I would appreciate any help on this.

    Dave

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    I have an FX10 and the 110SZ, so can not speak directly to the FX-K series, but I bet they are similar... (if I remember right, the software disks are the same for the SX, CX, FX, and FX-K)

    G92 tells the control to set where ever it is now, to what ever the specified coords are. So where ever it is when you command G92 X0 Y0 - will set the G54 (think thats how it reads, been so long since Ive even paid attention) to X0 Y0. I was taught to just use it, always use it. Even if you move and position with a work offset (G55-59 or the extra offsets W00-W99) start your new cut with a G92 of where ever you are. Why, I dont know, but every example I have ever gotten when asking for programming help had a G92 before it got to cutting, even if it was a programming doing the same part in different places.

    Im guessing maybe the theory with the G92 is, that it says "set the work coord system that youre using to run this program to these specs" - so that you dont get any unexpected moves?


    If you have the advanced hand box (has a display on the box), there is a set zero button. If you have the basic hand box, it doesnt, and I dont remember it well enough to remember if you can even set zeros from the hand box. With the advanced box, you would do your edge find in one direction, say Y for example. Once its stopped and found the edge, I press the "set zero" and hold it while I press either Y+ or Y- movement keys. That sets the display to Y0. Then Ill creep over the radius of the wire and re-zero. I use .010" wire - so say I was edge finding to the part and its Y+ from where I am - Id press edge find, Y+ and let it do its thing. Once it found the edge, Id press the edge fine button again to turn it off, then press (and hold) set zero and then one of the Y motion buttons - Y on the display would then read 0.0000 - then, I would go Y+ another .005" and then Re-Zero again (zero set + either Y motion button). Now, Y is set, and if you look at your screen, the left hand column of coords - the Y would read 0.0000. Then I would repeat it again for the X axis. Now you have X0 and Y0 and assuming you set your Z height from a gauge block or something previously, and then moved the head down and set it with a feeler gauge prior to finding your edges - you also know your Z height.

    If you have the basic hand box, I just cant remember if the handbox has the abilty to set the zero... Im thinking maybe it does not. So if you have the basic box, you would press the mode button to the "edge find" mode, then press the direction button you want to find (Y+ if using the same example above). Once its found the edge, I think you have to now go to the screen. You can curosor over to the Y that has the current position in it, highlight, and type in there (which if following the above example, you could type -0.005 because the edge of the wire is touching, but you have not yet moved the radius of the wire). Now, with Y-.005, you would have to creep Y+ to get to Y0 if you were going to set your G92 there as Y0. The other option is instead of typing in the location (such as -.005), you can use the CB button (clear block), Press the letter "Y" then the "CB" button. That will clear Y to 0.0000. Then you creep in the radius of the wire, and do "Y" - CB again. It can also be used when youre squaring your wire... once the wire alignment is done running and you want to zero U/V. Press the letter "U" then CB, Letter "V" then CB and both will be 0.0000.

    If you were to start your program right there, you would use G92 X0 Y0 Z1.5 in your program. But since youll have wire contact right there (actually .005" past contact), you are going to want to move it away from the material. So, say you want to start about .100" off from the material so you have a little room for threading - you might move X-.1 Y-.1 So now, your G92 would be X-.1 Y-.1 Z1.5 - because you moved, your zero didnt. And you dont want to move the machine again unless you are sure to move it back to what ever you set in your G92.

    Threading, from what I recall, where ever you tell it to thread in the program (M20) is where it treats as the starting point for re-threading. So, if you gave it:
    N1 G92 X-.1 Y-.1 Z1.5
    N2 M20 (thread)

    It will set where ever it is to X-.1 Y-.1 Z1.5 - then it will thread. Now do what ever youre doing... ie Epaks, Adaptive Control, feed rate, profile etc... and if the wire breaks in that process, it will cut wire, and move back to where ever it was when you gave it a M20, it will rethread, and then follow its previous cut to where it broke, and then pick back up.

    Each time you give it a M20 somewhere, that will be its rethread place until a M20 is given again somewhere else or its reset. Say you were going to cut a "comb" - just slice in from the edge to make the teeth of a comb, if you gave it a M20 before you start each tooth, then if the wire breaks on tooth #35, it would rethread at the beginning of that tooth, rather than going back to the start point, rethread, retrace tooth 1 - 34 and pickup cutting where it broke on tooth 35.

    I fought the G92 use when I got my wire, thinking I needed offsets... but it seems like the generally accepted practice is that its sort of used as a confirmation... and since its not like youre going to have 15second cycle times - taking a line or two to re-assert "you are here and we are starting right here, where you are, and we are saying where you are is Xa,Yb,Zc." Even if you are going to move around with offsets to cut multiples or something... start each cut saying "you're here, and we are telling you that HERE is X Y Z." If Im running repeat parts or multiple different parts from the same block and using work offsets to call locations, I put the main motion calls in the main program and put the G92 and M20 in each sub program.

    There is a lot to it... well, starting out, it feels like there is... and it seems complicated. Once you grasp it, its pretty easy, and once youre used to it and the machine, it becomes second nature and is a mere few key strokes. Hopefully my jumbled up mind didnt type it out in too confusing of a way.

    Wade

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    Wade,
    Thanks for the reply. The part I am not getting is HOW do I tell the machine it's at zero after I edge find the part. I have picked up the part and moved to compensate for the wire using relative position. I push reset twice and the position readout changes to zero. Then I run a little test program that I wrote and it works. But after I run the program, if I don't jog the machine back to the relative zero point the program will not start in the right place. The machine does not keep the zero position. That is the part I don't understand. Where ever the machine is sitting it thinks that is zero when I start the program. And if you push reset when the machine is in another location it sets that to zero. Thats what I don't understand. How do you SET the zero so the machine knows where it is. Thanks for your help.

    Dave

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    To the best of my knowledge.... Pressing Reset has NOTHING to do with where it thinks it is - it merely resets the G54 (which is where it operates from). You have to use either the Set Zero on the advanced handbox or using the CB on the panel or physically type in the zeros in the screen.

    Are you using G92? If you are, and you dont physically move the head back to X0 Y0 either via the program or manually - the next time you run it, it will reset the zero to exactly where the head is when you press start. (assuming youre next part is going to be cut in exactly the same spot as the previous one)

    You may need to look at with coord system its displaying as well - it has options to show you Machine Position, Relative Position, Program Position, Work offset position... and maybe others I dont remember off hand. Reset may change a number on the screen, but if the machine isnt using that coord system, its irrelevant. Add to that, if you are using G92, and you dont move it back to where it was at the start, it will reset the X0Y0 to where its sitting at that time. I set mine on relative position and leave it there. Never have an issue with loosing my zero set when pressing reset.

    Side note, you did do the "Set Zero Point" procedure at power up right? Not sure that it would cause weirdness, but I was told to always do that at power up. Its basically the equivalent of "homing" the machine at startup.

    Maybe seeing your test program would help, if what I typed above doesnt help?

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    There is something I'm not doing right. My test program just moves the head in a square. I'm trying to set the zero at the top left hand corner. I Jog the machine to where I want zero. I have set G54 at this point but I don't know if that it working. Then like I said I pushed reset twice and the readout went to zero. I set G54 by going to the offset page and copying the machine position to G54. I took the G92 out of the program. Then I run the following program:

    G54 G90 G0 X1.0 Y -1.0
    G1 Y1. F10.
    x0
    y-1.
    X1.0
    M2

    So now the the machine is at position is X1.0 Y -1.0 right? So if I press start again since it is already at X 1.0 Y -1.0 the machine should just start moving to Y0. But it doesn't. It moves to X2.0 and Y -2.0. And I can't get it to move back to my original zero no matter what I try except jogging back to that position. On a milling machine this program would do exactly what I wanted it to do. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. It's really getting aggravating. I hope you can tell me what I'm missing. Thanks for your help.

    Dave

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    I dont, nor have I ever used G54.... Ive only used G55-59 on my 110SZ (it doesnt have the expanded work offsets). So I cant say that is causing you any grief or not.

    I would say, the fact that youre doing something simple and one off... your headache is likely because of the G54 - but I cant say for sure, and I am far from an expert.

    Every example I have ever gotten from my tech when using a work offset has ALWAYS been preceded with at G53G92X0Y0 - Why? no idea. Guessing it forces the machine to the Machine Coord sys and re-references the homing point?

    Clip from a Main prog
    N109 H01=.007
    N110 G53G92X0Y0
    N111 G90G54.1P01G1F15.0X-0.7Y1.7M91 (Positioning move to starting point in the sub program - this is using the expanded work offsets W00-W99 - in this case, calling W01 with the G54.1 P01 - if I were using G55-G59 - I would have G90 G55 G1 F15.0 X-0.7 Y1.7 M91)
    N112 G22L1011(PART1)

    beginning of the sub program

    L1011/SUB1
    N200 G92X-0.7Y1.7Z1.55
    N201 M101(POWERMASTER OFF)
    ...Omitted irrelevant comments
    N205 M20(THREAD)
    N206 M78M78(FILL)
    N207 E0251
    N208 M80M82M84(FL-W-M)

    N209 G90F10.0G1G42H01X-.55Y1.53M91 (positioning from thread location to starting point)
    N210 F.03Y1.49M90 (starts cut with adaptive control - starts in from edge)
    N211 F.1Y.941 (ups feed rate after startup cut is established)
    N212 X-.2
    ......

    N225 G23
    N226 M02

    This program will start and run in the exact same place each time (a fixture I have set up) - and will do it correctly no matter where the head is when start is pressed.

    If youre dead set on using G54, I cant help.... I dont use it ever, and have no idea how it might handle things - but maybe your issue is missing the G53G92X0Y0 and thats it? The main thing that has kept me away from it is every example my tech has given me always uses G55-G59 or W00-W99 - and has NEVER used G54 - and couple that with on the monitor screen, when a program is running on the Monitor screen, and you look at the two columns of coords (right side)... one is Machine Coord and the other is G54 column, and those number change to match the program while the Mach Coord move, but never "change"... which makes me wonder if Mits uses G54 as sort of a "place holder" offset... and thus clears when ever reset is pressed and has to be written/called every time whether a G92 is used or not and your issue is just how youre calling the offset and moving to it. But maybe its all related to using G92? But no matter what Im doing... a one off with G92 and not using any work offsets, or using G55-59/W00-W99, that G54 column always becomes the "program position" numbers and the Mach Coord column is always the Mach Coords and you can math out the work offset from the G54 and Mach pos numbers. I cant honestly say I know if that G54 on the Monitor page changes to what ever the active work offset is or not... I dont remember ever looking.

    Everything I do was shown to me in examples from my tech when I got the first WEDM, and I just went with "this is the rule" and never asked why, or if it could be done differently.

    Side note from my tech when I got my first wire (110SZ)... "Use G1 and no faster than F25.0 for positioning, never use G0 unless you like replacing ball screws" (his words not mine - so Ive never used G0 - following his advise - do with that as you will - but he impressed upon me, that it was important - so I mention it to you just trying to pay things forward.

    Wade

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    I don't think the machine was even using the G54. I went into the offset page and cleared the numbers in G54 and took the G54 out of my test program and it ran exactly as it did with the G54. I wasn't using G54 for any particular reason, just out of habit from running machining centers. One thing I'm still trying to get straight. I'm still not sure I'm setting the zero correctly. I saw a picture of the advanced hand control in the book that has the button to set zero. I'm not sure how to do that on just on the screen since I have the regular hand control. What did you mean about using the cb button. I saw that on the control but I'm not sure how it works. I jogged the head to where I wanted the zero and tried pressing this button and it didn't seem to do anything. I have just been getting the head in the position I want and pressing reset twice and it zeros the numbers and seems work but I don't know if it is actually right.

    Dave

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    I went over the CB button previously....

    You want to "zero out" Y
    Press:
    Y (the letter on the keyboard)
    {CB} (the button)
    and it is done...
    To do X, same thing...
    X
    {CB}

    But the confusion could possibly be what coord system you have the display showing when on the setup page.

    Question... How do you "zero out" U and V once you have aligned the wire? Or have you?

    As far as the G54... thats what I was saying I didnt fully understand - but seems to be - that "G54" is what the machine references... and G92 is what sets the G54 - possibly? So not setting G54 with a G92, or calling a G54 that isnt set might be creating the issue?

    Maybe one of these days this week Ill have some free time, and you can call me, and we can both stand in front of a machine, and I can show you things over the phone - so Im looking at buttons and can confirm youre seeing the same thing I am. That could save some mis-speaking on my part since Im running from memory at the moment.

    I would spend some time reading up on G92 and plan on using it on the wire. I rewrote your example how I would do it (less all the actual cutting info and cutter comp that you didnt include since Im guessing youre just wrapping your head around the motion and not the cutting details at the moment)

    I would set X and Y zero and then move the head to X1.0 Y-1.5

    G92 X1.0 Y-1.5
    G90
    G1 F15.0 X1.0 Y-1.0 (positions to your start point)

    G1 Y1. F10. (your moves)
    X0
    Y-1.
    X1.0
    G1 F15.0 X1.0 Y-1.5 (position back to the original start point again)
    M2
    That will start and end at the same spot so if you run it again, it will repeat - as long as you dont move the head.

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    Was just on the FX and checked - when on the Monitor Page, when a work offset is called, it does in fact change that on the left column of the two sets of coords. If you dont call any work offset and use G92, it automatically grabs G54 - but if you call G55 or one of the Wxx offsets, it does change at the top of that column to the WO that was called.

    So, knowing that, Im wondering if what you were seeing motion was, was because you didnt have the G53 G92 X0 Y0 preceding your offset call?

    Have any luck getting the display on the WPS page set to "Rel-Pos" and then setting your zeros with the {CB} button?

    Wade

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    Yes I got the CB button to work to set the zero. I haven't done much with the machine since I did that to see if that fixed any of my problems. Before I did that I did some more playing around with the little program and what happens to the zero position. I don't think it is using G54. I took the G54 out of my program and it worked the same. Then I went to the offset page and cleared the numbers in G54 and the program still ran the same. I'll do some more experimenting tomorrow. I need to get it figured out. While I've been playing around with it a job came in for it.

    Dave

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    You could be battling not having the Rel-Pos up as the active coords when setting zero... just spit balling... If youre in Rel-Pos on the WPS page when you set your Zero, you should be able to move around via key pad (MDI in essence) with that Zero and be fine. But one thing I dont know, is if that relative position carries over to the actual offsets the control is using when actually running a program. Which may be why G92 is used by so many? As that G92 in the program would force it to update the offset the control is using - to match the zero you set. I do not know...

    You may be better off calling Mits or an independent mits tech that can tell you definitively what youre doing wrong or why its doing what its doing and point you at the correction yould need to make. All I really know is what I was told to do, and how to do it... and have not deviated or investigated beyond that - but G92 was ALWAYS used, even when using work offsets. It may all revolve around G92... I dunno.

    Good luck!
    Wade


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