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  1. #1
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    I have looked thru previous posts and didn't see a direct answer to the querry I have. I know there are lots of folks here who run wire EDM for a living so.....
    We have years of ram experience ( nearly all our work is blind)but we have an item here that has some thru work (2+" dp) in CRS, and I had one shop quote this and I winced. There is little on this of accuracy (+/- .005 OK) .015r in corners and I provide a part nice and ground up with wire starter holes in and a CD with accurate 2D geometry. Cakewalk for a wire. The way some people throw around suggestions to use a wire EDM so freely I think perhaps there are less costly sources available. At the cost of the past quotes I recieve I give up an sink it with ram.
    What are the costs per inch some of you folks run? I understand it may be a bit nosey of a question. It would appear that wire is a 10pound sledge for our 2penny nail......overkill and priced accordingly.

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    Just my own opinion, but one pass at $10.00/square inch is not bad money.

    If my FA10 were generating that rate all day long, I'd be a happy boy.

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    I'd be happy to quote that job for you at a lot less than $10.00/sq. in if there are multiple pieces with some sq. inches to it. If it is just one piece with little cutting to it, 10.00/sq. might be a good price.

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    Bluchip

    When getting quotes for WEDM, make sure you're looking at the right shops.Prices from places that primarily do tool and die work will be double, perhaps triple of those with operations geared to production. I could not touch a die job to save my life if price was a consideration, but for production runs not many T/D shops can come near. This is also true for the other jobshops around here. Can it be done without threading? Can it be stacked? Fixtureable to hold multiple parts? Can the slug be left there and pushed out later with minimal touch up? That and a few other questions answered the right way can easily cut the prices to a fraction.

    Again, a picture is worth a thousand words.

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    I have a machine where just the monthly payment is $10K a month. Along with elec. and consumables I have not made a dime until I have moved $11,000 worth of work on it. Would I cut for $10/sq/in? Nope. For a less expensive boiler plate machine where the dues have been paid and the machine is still in good shape $10 bucks/sq./in is probably not bad on thicker materials. Sometimes a job is more set up time than cutting. Still $10/sq/inch? .. Nope. Every job has to be quoted based on what it is, whether machine can run unattended or if you have to be there every 10 minutes to shove another part in. In an R & D shop like mine most of my time is in setup and programming and while I am doing that the machine is idle. I have to look at what the job is bringing in and how many hours total I have in it. A lot of customers only see the cut time and they say $500 for that ? ..

    TMD

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    one shop quote this
    That might be your problem there. Seems some shops price stuff really high. Have had people quote around 9 times what I have. I have no idea how they can get work like that.

    Best way might be get some more quotes. While we can give you a general idea, as mentioned above, it really depends on the job. (For me me at least, I try to work up a reasonable price, prehaps all these guys that are out of this world, don't even try to work on the quote, just throw a price out that you know you will make money on! :rolleyes: )

    I'd be happy to happy to give you a quote if you like. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    Eric

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    I price like any other machine shop with CNC equipment, you need to get $65.00 per hour min. Consumables are a little more for a wire EDM than a CNC mill or lathe. I do use $10.00/sq.in. as a base price, but need to take the size and complexity into consideration. If you are doing a large cut in 2" thick material at 15 sq. in. per hour at $10.00 a sq. is $150.00 per hour. Thats more than double of what normal shop rates are. I would also like to quote, I am a 1 man custom shop. [email protected]

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    Well folks April came and went and this deadline for the particular job is upon us. Out of 4 shops contacted for this $1500 wire job (including one thru this forum) 1 was double cost(approaching $20/in), the remaining did not quote. Work must be pretty plentiful for the wire EDM shops. Alas, I again have given up and redesigned to eliminate wire EDM and will likely have the part done in 2 or 3 days. We'll mill most of it and ram EDM the remainder. I must have been correct in the assesment that wire EDM is to be reserved for unlimited budgeted projects and employed only absolutely every other avenue has been explored. I still wonder how much wire work is avoided like the plague by like minded folks with similar results.

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    Actually WEDM work is often cheap... I have had pockets cut in mold bases, using WEDM, much cheaper than I can mill them. And by eliminating the corner radii in the pockets, often can use a smaller insert, & sometimes even a size smaller mold base... & I get back the slugs, good steel & squared up, rather than sweeping up chips...

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    Bluchip

    Just curious. Can you post a drawing or an image of what you need?
    Not to beat a dead horse, just want to see, and perhaps figure out why the quotes were soo high.

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    Bluchip,

    It does not sound like your job is rocket science, I don't know why your quotes are coming in so high. When I got my first wire edm it was a blessing as I took a lot of the work off my mill and put it on the wire EDM. There were jobs where I would have 3 or 4 set ups on the mill and the wire did it all in one set up. Depends on the job, but a lot of times the EDM is less expensive that running the job on the mill. I used to run a lot of tooling on the CNC mill and with the wire I could do all the precision holes, all the slotting, sharp corner slots, tapers and when all that was done walk around the outside and cut the plate to shape along with the outside slots, angles and sharp inside radius.. all in one setup.

    TMD

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    The last WEDM job I had done was a pockets in a mold base. The A&B plates burned together, to get exact match. I had 2 pockets , 3 inches X 4 inches cut, through 2 3/4 inch thick. I had drilled the start holes. Shop charged me $300.00. No way I could have milled the pockets for that, plus the wired ones were perfect. Milled pockets always have some taper issues to deal with.

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    Just curious. Can you post a drawing or an image of what you need?
    Just for funsies, here's a dirty jpg of Part

    Bit sketchy but viewable.
    It does not sound like your job is rocket science,
    That's for certain!
    It is a nest for a trim die for an alum die cast motor frame. It locates and supports the casting whilst the punches and trimedges are presented to the casting to shear off excess flash, gates, wells,etc. You can visulize this as a fractional HP endframe and see the layout of vents and wire access window.
    It's thickness leads to the cost but the lack of interest from 3 other shops is puzzling. But that's the way it is so we've moved on. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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    Not to be critical, but considering the expense of this part, why use 1018 CRS ? Seems it would be worth using better steel...

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    Not to be critical, but considering the expense of this part, why use 1018 CRS ? Seems it would be worth using better steel...
    It's repairability is superior to any other choice. It will accept weld time and again. It will accept other alloy inserts welded in. It deforms rather than shattering or fracturing. The details are easily machined(read the above saga of trying to avoid difficult millwork!). With a light C&H it is wear resistant enough for aluminum castings.
    As a captive shop I get to see the tools designed,made, put into production, wrecked, destroyed, resurected, retired and scrapped. The ease or repairability is way way down on the list of priorities for most tool shops....I have it at the top. We have repaired CRS with pipe sections welded in, heated and re-straightened, offending sections hacksawed out, and new sections hammered out of flat wire and welded in.
    If a new tapped hole is needed cut thru the case and drill and tap as needed.
    Oddly enough, my second choice would be H13. It welds time and again and has enourmous compressive strength. All the other alloys A2,D2,O1,S7(the worst)4130/4140, P20 all seem to take one weld and the next is futile.

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    Bluchip

    I may get some flack for this but here it goes.
    If you have that 5.453 od finished, then I would estimate that drawing and programming the pockets will take 1 hour. Drill 13 start holes, ream 2 of them to get location/orientation properly. Done on a CNC kneemill- 30 mins. The cutting time, without actually calculating the total length, I estimate for no more than 6 hours with the 13 relocation and threading.
    Since you've mentioned +/- .005 tolerances, skim cutting is not needed, so the whole thing should take about 2.5 hours of setup, programming and manual time complete with the tit removal, the rest is EDM machine time only.
    Unless it's explicitly requested, I wont post the price I'd quote it for, but feel free to PM me to get an idea.

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    Default Wire EDM qoutea

    Quote Originally Posted by Machinery_E View Post
    That might be your problem there. Seems some shops price stuff really high. Have had people quote around 9 times what I have. I have no idea how they can get work like that.

    Best way might be get some more quotes. While we can give you a general idea, as mentioned above, it really depends on the job. (For me me at least, I try to work up a reasonable price, prehaps all these guys that are out of this world, don't even try to work on the quote, just throw a price out that you know you will make money on! :rolleyes: )

    I'd be happy to happy to give you a quote if you like. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    Eric
    Eric, I'd like to run a project across ya to quote. 20 small parts (5 sets) email me direct [email protected]


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