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    Default Wire edm questions

    I have a need for a wire edm, personal use not business.

    What am I getting myself into by buying a lower prices used machine? $5000-10,000

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    First things first, it won’t work if it sits idle for long periods and when the go wrong, they don’t go wrong cheaply...

    But if you have the cash to support it through it’s life cycle and proper servicing then go for it! They are rewarding machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke.kerbey View Post
    First things first, it won’t work if it sits idle for long periods and when the go wrong, they don’t go wrong cheaply...
    Think using it 2/3 days a week every week would fall into the idle long category?



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    I would say that is frequent use (in my opinion) so shouldn’t cause idling issues. If you haven’t decided on a brand yet, make sure you have a decent second hand parts dealer. As parts for non supported machines are like rocking horse shit.

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    I'm looking at a 1995 mitubishi cx-20

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    Repost this in the EDM machining section, and you’ll get more response, I’ve never used a Mitsubishi so I can’t comment on them.

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    You can get a really good machine fairly reasonable it's the damn tooling and jewels that dig into your pocket. Have priced the rails for one from System 3R? Then the clamping systems,,,,Whoa.... easily $10K for a basic kit.

    Then the Diamonds. A cheap set will run about $500 for upper/lower. Then you need a set for strictly vertical and another set for angles. Then drop one of those tiny little fkrs while swapping!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    You can get a really good machine fairly reasonable it's the damn tooling and jewels that dig into your pocket. Have priced the rails for one from System 3R? Then the clamping systems,,,,Whoa.... easily $10K for a basic kit.

    Then the Diamonds. A cheap set will run about $500 for upper/lower. Then you need a set for strictly vertical and another set for angles. Then drop one of those tiny little fkrs while swapping!!!!
    I did look at that system and damn pricey no doubt. I want to get one for personal use and make some stuff as a demo. If things work ok I may end up buying a new higher end one for the shop.

    What I want to cut is small parts out of stacked flat plates of titanium. Should be able to make whatever work holding I need for that.

    Do I need a dielectric fluid or will di water work??

    So far I gather I'll need the following

    New filters
    New guides and diamonds
    Wire
    Di water system

    Our current cam software has EDM capabilities, probably just need a post for it. We use it for the waterjet already.




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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    I did look at that system and damn pricey no doubt. I want to get one for personal use and make some stuff as a demo. If things work ok I may end up buying a new higher end one for the shop.

    What I want to cut is small parts out of stacked flat plates of titanium. Should be able to make whatever work holding I need for that.

    Do I need a dielectric fluid or will di water work??

    So far I gather I'll need the following

    New filters
    New guides and diamonds
    Wire
    Di water system

    Our current cam software has EDM capabilities, probably just need a post for it. We use it for the waterjet already.
    Di water is fine, The dialectric fluid is mostly for sinkers. As far as the CAM I just use Featurecams milling module and modded the post to kill all the spindle and feed lines. I've only ran Charmilles and their control handles everything you need as far as feed, power, passes, cut/re-thread. I'm guessing most other brands work that way also.
    Last edited by g-coder05; 01-01-2020 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Im dumb and don't know the difference There/Their

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    Di water is fine, The dialectric fluid is mostly for sinkers. As far as the CAM I just use Featurecams milling module and modded the post to kill all the spindle and feed lines. I've only ran Charmilles and there control handles everything you need as far as feed, power, passes, cut/re-thread. I'm guessing most other brands work that way also.
    Good to know, I may pull the trigger on this EDM then....

    $5000 for a 1995 Mitsubishi cx-20. Looks really clean.



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    Hi as9100d:
    You wrote:
    What am I getting myself into by buying a lower prices used machine? $5000-10,000

    What you are getting into is a guessing game as to whether the machine will work, for how long, how reliably and how accurately.
    Wire EDM machines are complex with lots of subsystems each of which is critical to making the whole process work.
    A failure in any one of the subsystems and the machine quits dead.
    It can be a bank-breaking nightmare from hell to get it running again, and the older the machine the bigger the chance you take.

    However, to counterbalance that risk, you may win and get a machine that runs like a bunny forever...you just can't tell.

    So if you wish to accept the risk there are a few rules, and the principal one is:
    DON'T BUY AN ORPHAN.
    Mits is a good and popular brand, most of those who've bought them love them or at least like them.
    How painful it is to fix an older model I do not know, but I do believe you have to pony up some coin to even get to talk to them the first time.
    Vintage 1995 is awfully old...I had a '96 Sodick and I had to get rid of it in 2011 because it just got to be too unreliable to keep running...and I'd paid 40 grand for a fully reconditioned machine from EDM Network in Illinois.
    No slur on EDM Network; they supported the machine for the entire time I owned it but (in 2008) 12 year old electronics that get this kind of harsh treatment, controlling high currents in nasty environments eventually give up the ghost...I had board failures of all kinds, along with computer failures and mechanical failures.

    So the first thing to consider is how will you get it fixed WHEN (not if) it fails.
    A popular brand with good support and parts still available will be a workable solution for your stated goals... an orphan will sooner or later be a boat anchor that takes up space in your shop until you drag it outside to rot.

    The second thing is to anticipate correctly, what this whole initiative is going to take.
    Wires are maintenance intensive and cost a lot to operate with respect to wire, DI resin, filters, and consumable machine components like discharge cables power contacts and wire guides.
    Typically you will spend at least 15 bucks an hour just for wire and DI resin...lots more if you need to replace any unexpected bits.
    I'm calculating consumable costs on a basis of $20.00 per hour for the work I quote these days.

    So you may end up making a hard headed, unromantic business decision and just farm the work out unless you plan to run this machine pretty often to make money.
    If that's the case, the capital cost of a new machine shouldn't be what shapes your decision...how much paying work you can put across the table per month will be the principal consideration.
    The hassle factor of an inoperative machine when you've got deadlines will far outweigh the inconvenience of a monthly payment.

    So keep that all in mind when you contemplate this.

    BTW, to answer your most recent questions, the wire will run deionized water (so no dielectric oil like a sinker needs).
    The machine has a dielectric system built into it so you need filters, and DI resin, but nothing more to condition your water assuming the subsystem is still working.
    Stacking and cutting flat plates is common wire work and needs only a couple of strap clamps and a pair of bolts to hold the stack onto the machine table, so no expensive tooling to buy in order to do that particular job.
    The wire guides are the diamonds...actually they are doughnut shaped diamonds, and you need a pair in good condition for every wire diameter you intend to run, but they need not be new, they just need to be in good condition.
    You can get thousands of hours of use from a pair of guides...the criterion is how worn they are, not how old they are, and if your work is not super precision work, you can get away with a pretty crappy pair before you even notice a problem.
    So if you plan on doing work within a thou, your needs will be very different than if your work must be within a tenth.
    I know of guys who, in a pinch, ran 0.006" wire through 0.010" guides and got away with it just fine for the work they were doing.
    The other thing you'll likely need that's not on your list is power contacts...they are little carbide blocks that transmit the current to the wire...they get grooved eventually and need to be indexed, then replaced when there are no more virgin positions left.
    I index every couple of months and I replace contacts typically every two years for a couple of hundred bucks a pair.

    So bear this all in mind before you pull the trigger on the new toy.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining



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    I'm not a Mits fan at all but then again it only took one machine to turn me off. Somewhere back in 2009-2010 we picked up one at an acution that was cutting parts. In between making the payment and installation something happened that Mits couldn't even get sorted out. As Implex stated, EDM are extremely complicated. The one I bought never made another part and wound up in the roll off dumpster.


    https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...0&d=1263097976
    https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...0&d=1263097976
    https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...9&d=1263097976

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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    Hi as9100d:
    You wrote:
    What am I getting myself into by buying a lower prices used machine? $5000-10,000

    What you are getting into is a guessing game as to whether the machine will work, for how long, how reliably and how accurately.
    Wire EDM machines are complex with lots of subsystems each of which is critical to making the whole process work.
    A failure in any one of the subsystems and the machine quits dead.
    It can be a bank-breaking nightmare from hell to get it running again, and the older the machine the bigger the chance you take.

    However, to counterbalance that risk, you may win and get a machine that runs like a bunny forever...you just can't tell.

    So if you wish to accept the risk there are a few rules, and the principal one is:
    DON'T BUY AN ORPHAN.
    Mits is a good and popular brand, most of those who've bought them love them or at least like them.
    How painful it is to fix an older model I do not know, but I do believe you have to pony up some coin to even get to talk to them the first time.
    Vintage 1995 is awfully old...I had a '96 Sodick and I had to get rid of it in 2011 because it just got to be too unreliable to keep running...and I'd paid 40 grand for a fully reconditioned machine from EDM Network in Illinois.
    No slur on EDM Network; they supported the machine for the entire time I owned it but (in 2008) 12 year old electronics that get this kind of harsh treatment, controlling high currents in nasty environments eventually give up the ghost...I had board failures of all kinds, along with computer failures and mechanical failures.

    So the first thing to consider is how will you get it fixed WHEN (not if) it fails.
    A popular brand with good support and parts still available will be a workable solution for your stated goals... an orphan will sooner or later be a boat anchor that takes up space in your shop until you drag it outside to rot.

    The second thing is to anticipate correctly, what this whole initiative is going to take.
    Wires are maintenance intensive and cost a lot to operate with respect to wire, DI resin, filters, and consumable machine components like discharge cables power contacts and wire guides.
    Typically you will spend at least 15 bucks an hour just for wire and DI resin...lots more if you need to replace any unexpected bits.
    I'm calculating consumable costs on a basis of $20.00 per hour for the work I quote these days.

    So you may end up making a hard headed, unromantic business decision and just farm the work out unless you plan to run this machine pretty often to make money.
    If that's the case, the capital cost of a new machine shouldn't be what shapes your decision...how much paying work you can put across the table per month will be the principal consideration.
    The hassle factor of an inoperative machine when you've got deadlines will far outweigh the inconvenience of a monthly payment.

    So keep that all in mind when you contemplate this.

    BTW, to answer your most recent questions, the wire will run deionized water (so no dielectric oil like a sinker needs).
    The machine has a dielectric system built into it so you need filters, and DI resin, but nothing more to condition your water assuming the subsystem is still working.
    Stacking and cutting flat plates is common wire work and needs only a couple of strap clamps and a pair of bolts to hold the stack onto the machine table, so no expensive tooling to buy in order to do that particular job.
    The wire guides are the diamonds...actually they are doughnut shaped diamonds, and you need a pair in good condition for every wire diameter you intend to run, but they need not be new, they just need to be in good condition.
    You can get thousands of hours of use from a pair of guides...the criterion is how worn they are, not how old they are, and if your work is not super precision work, you can get away with a pretty crappy pair before you even notice a problem.
    So if you plan on doing work within a thou, your needs will be very different than if your work must be within a tenth.
    I know of guys who, in a pinch, ran 0.006" wire through 0.010" guides and got away with it just fine for the work they were doing.
    The other thing you'll likely need that's not on your list is power contacts...they are little carbide blocks that transmit the current to the wire...they get grooved eventually and need to be indexed, then replaced when there are no more virgin positions left.
    I index every couple of months and I replace contacts typically every two years for a couple of hundred bucks a pair.

    So bear this all in mind before you pull the trigger on the new toy.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining


    Excellent information. Sounds like most of the consumable items are cheaper than I expected so I'm good with even buying all new items like this.

    The machine in question was running when pulled and sold In a complete shop auction and the photos look really good. I'll probably pull the plane out and fly to see it this week. They cleaned it real well before palletizing and greased all the rails.

    I need to find out the boards inside and if they are able to be replaced or repaired if I have an issue.



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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    I'm not a Mits fan at all but then again it only took one machine to turn me off. Somewhere back in 2009-2010 we picked up one at an acution that was cutting parts. In between making the payment and installation something happened that Mits couldn't even get sorted out. As Implex stated, EDM are extremely complicated. The one I bought never made another part and wound up in the roll off dumpster.


    https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...0&d=1263097976
    https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...0&d=1263097976
    https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...9&d=1263097976
    I don't think I'd buy Mitsubishi if I buy new but for used personal use to get my feet wet it should be ok if guess?

    1995 MITSUBISHI CX-20 WIRE EDM | eBay

    This is the machine I have a deal worked out and will pull the trigger on next week if all looks good.

    What are your opinions?

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Man oh Man,,,, That like playing Russian roulette with 3 rounds in a six shooter. I just don't like machines that have the controls separate from the machine. The pics make you think its all plug and play when you get it but only to find out there another hundred wires not labeled (That was my case).

    And the seller put this in fine print

    Machine appears to be in excellent condition and was removed from service. Palletized and stored.



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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    Man oh Man,,,, That like playing Russian roulette with 3 rounds in a six shooter. I just don't like machines that have the controls separate from the machine. The pics make you think its all plug and play when you get it but only to find out there another hundred wires not labeled (That was my case).

    And the seller put this in fine print

    Machine appears to be in excellent condition and was removed from service. Palletized and stored.


    I do agree with the roulette Wire edm questions

    I've been talking with the owner in great detail about it and why it is like it is. I don't see any red flags and I'm fine with paying Mitsubishi the $2500 for this machine to get parts and manuals.

    We already do this with 2 pressbrakes we have through mc machinery and it's fine.



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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    Hi as9100d:
    You wrote:
    What am I getting myself into by buying a lower prices used machine? $5000-10,000

    What you are getting into is a guessing game as to whether the machine will work, for how long, how reliably and how accurately.
    Wire EDM machines are complex with lots of subsystems each of which is critical to making the whole process work.
    A failure in any one of the subsystems and the machine quits dead.
    It can be a bank-breaking nightmare from hell to get it running again, and the older the machine the bigger the chance you take.

    However, to counterbalance that risk, you may win and get a machine that runs like a bunny forever...you just can't tell.

    So if you wish to accept the risk there are a few rules, and the principal one is:
    DON'T BUY AN ORPHAN.
    Mits is a good and popular brand, most of those who've bought them love them or at least like them.
    How painful it is to fix an older model I do not know, but I do believe you have to pony up some coin to even get to talk to them the first time.
    Vintage 1995 is awfully old...I had a '96 Sodick and I had to get rid of it in 2011 because it just got to be too unreliable to keep running...and I'd paid 40 grand for a fully reconditioned machine from EDM Network in Illinois.
    No slur on EDM Network; they supported the machine for the entire time I owned it but (in 2008) 12 year old electronics that get this kind of harsh treatment, controlling high currents in nasty environments eventually give up the ghost...I had board failures of all kinds, along with computer failures and mechanical failures.

    So the first thing to consider is how will you get it fixed WHEN (not if) it fails.
    A popular brand with good support and parts still available will be a workable solution for your stated goals... an orphan will sooner or later be a boat anchor that takes up space in your shop until you drag it outside to rot.

    The second thing is to anticipate correctly, what this whole initiative is going to take.
    Wires are maintenance intensive and cost a lot to operate with respect to wire, DI resin, filters, and consumable machine components like discharge cables power contacts and wire guides.
    Typically you will spend at least 15 bucks an hour just for wire and DI resin...lots more if you need to replace any unexpected bits.
    I'm calculating consumable costs on a basis of $20.00 per hour for the work I quote these days.

    So you may end up making a hard headed, unromantic business decision and just farm the work out unless you plan to run this machine pretty often to make money.
    If that's the case, the capital cost of a new machine shouldn't be what shapes your decision...how much paying work you can put across the table per month will be the principal consideration.
    The hassle factor of an inoperative machine when you've got deadlines will far outweigh the inconvenience of a monthly payment.

    So keep that all in mind when you contemplate this.

    BTW, to answer your most recent questions, the wire will run deionized water (so no dielectric oil like a sinker needs).
    The machine has a dielectric system built into it so you need filters, and DI resin, but nothing more to condition your water assuming the subsystem is still working.
    Stacking and cutting flat plates is common wire work and needs only a couple of strap clamps and a pair of bolts to hold the stack onto the machine table, so no expensive tooling to buy in order to do that particular job.
    The wire guides are the diamonds...actually they are doughnut shaped diamonds, and you need a pair in good condition for every wire diameter you intend to run, but they need not be new, they just need to be in good condition.
    You can get thousands of hours of use from a pair of guides...the criterion is how worn they are, not how old they are, and if your work is not super precision work, you can get away with a pretty crappy pair before you even notice a problem.
    So if you plan on doing work within a thou, your needs will be very different than if your work must be within a tenth.
    I know of guys who, in a pinch, ran 0.006" wire through 0.010" guides and got away with it just fine for the work they were doing.
    The other thing you'll likely need that's not on your list is power contacts...they are little carbide blocks that transmit the current to the wire...they get grooved eventually and need to be indexed, then replaced when there are no more virgin positions left.
    I index every couple of months and I replace contacts typically every two years for a couple of hundred bucks a pair.

    So bear this all in mind before you pull the trigger on the new toy.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining


    Marcus, not sure what brand you are running, but Sodick contacts are about $50... Charmilles closer to $500...

    Charmilles stuff seems to be way overpriced, but with some cad/cam skills and a micrometer, some stuff can be made much cheaper in-house

    Don't know anything about Mits edm thogugh.....

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    Do some research on the cx machine, i was thinking that machine had some design issue which caused a lot of issues with that model. If i was buying a used machine i would stick to Mits. Sodick, and Fanuc only, these companys support there machines well. Stay away from Charmilles, and Agie machines as the parts pricing is insane. Thanks Jason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by demoj21 View Post
    Do some research on the cx machine, i was thinking that machine had some design issue which caused a lot of issues with that model. If i was buying a used machine i would stick to Mits. Sodick, and Fanuc only, these companys support there machines well. Stay away from Charmilles, and Agie machines as the parts pricing is insane. Thanks Jason.
    Reviews I read said it has a weight issue for parts not being supported well enough. What I'll be cutting is under 30 lbs which is a small fraction of what the Max weight is.

    I just want to wire edm some stuff for prototyping and figuring things out, not production or tight tolerance. If I can get +/-.001 I'll be happy

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    It's likely you'll need the seal plate nylon replaced, if not the whole plate depending on how badly it's worn. The bellows on the lower arm are a high wear item, especially if the previous operator was lazy in rinsing the sludge off the arm. The EDM junk gets hard and crusty when it dries and doesn't wash back off. This rubs the shit out of the rubber bellows and depending on the machine and the Y servo location, typically takes that with it. When I was working for Mits I had to replace quite a few servos for this reason, which is completely avoidable with some preventative maintenance.

    I haven't had my hands on a CX, but from my understanding they're fairly similar to the FX machines. Parts are getting harder to find on the old machines, so keep that in mind. If you can find an FA machine for a reasonable price I'd recommend that over an older machine. I've seen some FAs go for pretty reasonable. I can't really talk about other brands outside of Mits as I haven't worked on anything else EDM wise, but they're not terrible machines. Once you get the swing of it they're fairly easy to work on (albeit a bit cramped in places), but most of the customers I worked with were pretty happy with them.


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