Advice on plasma torch

Hi All!

I just acquired a well-seasoned, yet very good condition CNC plasma system, which came with a Thermal Dynamics PAK1000XR. It's rated output is 80A @115v.

The torch on the table is a common inline 'machine' type torch, and I was advised that the type was common a decade or two ago, but not anymore, so consumables are pricey and rare.

I'm going to use it for CNC, but one of the ancillary plans is to also fit the power supply with a handheld torch for non-CNC cutting tasks.

SO... in the future, I'll be looking for torches for both the machine, and handheld. My question is this:

What are the options available to me, and what order should I set my priorities when selecting torches... like:

Would I be able to find a manufacturer and line of machine torches that use same consumables as my hand torch...

Would there be any reason NOT to use same type of consumables for machine and handheld op?

For a machine of 80A class, what brands and models of torch system would give me flat plate CNC (machine) and hand op to the max capacity of my power supply?

I'll note that while I have some dispositions about welders, I have very little with plasma. I'll be using this system to make my own parts (prototypes and personal projects, machinery repair parts, yard art, etc), but not for commercial production.

Not sure how your torch attaches to machine, some are quick release to some degree and others are more "permanent"

Rob F. said:

Not sure how your torch attaches to machine, some are quick release to some degree and others are more "permanent"

Click to expand...

My current torch is a straight unit, mounted in a tube on the carriage of the gantry. At the machine end, there's a large grommetted hole at the upper front of the machine, with the big power cable on a nutted terminal, two hoses (one RH, the other LH thread) for running two different cutting gas choices (I'll be running just compressed air probably)and a medium-sized twist-lock connector for control going to the CNC cabinet.

Initially, I'd just like to get a hand-torch on it, set it up for single-phase 240, and put the supply on large-diameter 2-wheel cart so I can roll it across my gravel driveway and around the soft ground where I'm building the new shop, and once I've got the pillars, rails, and gantry back assembled, I'd come up with some handy way to swap it from CNC to mobile use... possibly such that both modes would be connected, I'd just have an easy way to unhook the table and roll the cart out, use, roll back and reconnect to table.

And I'm not in any way 'married' to the torch on the machine- it's well, well used, and consumables to fit that nozzle, so I'm expecting that soon after, if not before I put it back in action... so if I wind up buying two sets of guns at the same time, that use same consumables... I'll do that...

Normally you use a diffrent type of nozzle setup, but it all depnds on what your cutting and what you have - get as a torch. Look at hyper-therm, i believe they do a large cross index link as to suitable torches to various machines. Hypertherm torches kinda set the stds to judge anything else too at the moment, there very good, and have some of the best consumable life and cut quality going!

1. What maker of the table & Control ?
2. Are you going to run it as is ? Or retrofit the controls ?
3. Do some homework on the TD powersupply/torch, is it a HF start ?As far as a new torch, there are some USA Ebay resellers of aftermarket torches.
eBay

You may want one of these ESAB 1torch setups:

https://mam.esab.com:8443/assets/1/...AB71894E6/V430143-en_US-FactSheet_Main-01.pdf

tomjelly said:

You may want one of these ESAB 1torch setups:

https://mam.esab.com:8443/assets/1/...AB71894E6/V430143-en_US-FactSheet_Main-01.pdf

Click to expand...

Interesting how they make it to work with both HF start
as well as blow back.
The consumable breakdown shows a start cartridge, I wonder if on a HF start
machine, a dummy spacer is used ? None is showed.

Thanks for the input, guys!

The PAK1000XR has HF, and it's configured with the control system to utilize the feature.

The gantry was built by MG systems, with electronics by CMC Controls, and some flavor of BURNY...

So yeah, it's well-broken-in. Fortunately, the chassis is built like a brick privvy... rails are 30' long, room for two 5x12' tables, has a blade cutterhead for cutting 'soft' materials, and I'll probably make a plate to mount a small-to-moderate router spindle for cutting other materials too.

Initially, I'll get it in place and get it fired up on the original controls, but in the interim, I'll be studying up on the myriad of more modern controls, and contemplate a retrofit to something that's easy to use, something I can draw from my office, and transmit to the controls... call up and burn without a massive learning curve, and finally, put me in hardware that isn't of 'unobtainium' circumstances.

Doug- An aftermarket torch would be just fine with me... I just want the ability to use my power supply as both table and freehand-mobile, and would prefer that I only had to have a cabinet with one flavor of torch consumables on hand... that way, when I run out, I'm out of both at the same time, right? :-}

DaveKamp said:

Doug- An aftermarket torch would be just fine with me... I just want the ability to use my power supply as both table and freehand-mobile, and would prefer that I only had to have a cabinet with one flavor of torch consumables on hand... that way, when I run out, I'm out of both at the same time, right? :-}

Click to expand...

Unfortunately your decision to retrofit the cnc controls probably won't play nice with the HF plasma, hence my question.
The Industrial controls like Burny were made to work with the HF start plasma units.

IIrc Burny is out of business.

MG probably won't want anything to do with the old table.

Post some pix, the older ones had a single sided drive and it may not even
be worth your time to retrofit.
If it's a newer gantry, worthy of a retrofit I would suggest CandC controls
from texas.

digger doug said:

Unfortunately your decision to retrofit the cnc controls probably won't play nice with the HF plasma, hence my question.
The Industrial controls like Burny were made to work with the HF start plasma units.

IIrc Burny is out of business.

MG probably won't want anything to do with the old table.

Post some pix, the older ones had a single sided drive and it may not even
be worth your time to retrofit.
If it's a newer gantry, worthy of a retrofit I would suggest CandC controls
from texas.

Click to expand...

Hee hee...

Doug... this gantry is built like a bridge crane... substantially better than any other CNC plasma table I've ever seen in person. Keyboardist for my band is a factory rep for one of the big names, and he came over for a look, says nothing short of top-notch here. Dual drives, with gear reduction and dual encoders on each drive unit, on sectional racks on elevated track down the entire 30 foot rolling length. It has two tables 5' wide by 12' long, each table was fitted with downdraft and a CNC-controlled damper and 5hp evacuation blower. Gantry, with CNC controls and drives on it, weighs 2600lbs... it's basically a 10" high 6" wide piece of 40lb/ft I-beam. Gantry leg inner and outer plates are 3/4" thick, rolling down the track on 8" wheels. I stand atop this bridge, and it will NOT deflect. It'll easily take a 10hp router spindle if I so desire.

I took a short look at CandC of Texas, and looks like they've got a nice package going... but they're using steppers and servos that are a slight fraction of the size that this gantry runs. My servos are about 5" in diameter, a foot long... they're DC, probably upwards of a 1/4hp in continuous duty mode... driving some healthy gearboxes that drive the pinions against the traversing racks. I'd probably keep all those mechanicals, but the other end (the UI console and software) would certainly be changed out... I'd just hafta figure out how to make the interface, and I'm pretty confident that won't be an insurmountable challenge.

I bought it partly for the chassis, and partly for the power supply- it's certainly worthy of a control modernization... and I'm very electronically-inclined, particularly with HF transmitters (and receivers, and antennas, for that matter), and I've got plenty of experience dealing with RFI not only getting into my radio system, I've had plenty of opportunity to find ways to keep my HF radio transmitters from getting into the controls of my machines' VFDs... so doing the retrofit won't cause me any challenges I'm not already anticipating.

I just wanna get this power supply set up for 240 single-phase, and get a hand-held torch on it so I can put it to immediate work on several other tasks that my new shop building process requires... and I'm shopping for the most sensible setup that'll keep me from having to have two totally different sets of consumables.

Is that possible?
I'm not afraid to buy really good stuff. I'm not making this into a professional shop, but good stuff costs lots up front, but pays for itself in functional longetivity, durability, and servicability.

Please understand one thing, if you want to cut small holes, accurate features and get clean cutting with a plasma in this millenia you have to have serious acceleration. Attaching a plasma torch to something with the acceleration of a bridge crane won't cut for shit. Edge quality and cut accuracy will go to shit at the end of every straight if you can't accelerate and de-accelerate hard enough, speed is a critical controlling feature of plasma cut edge quality.

Standing on the gantery also counts for shit, if you want to mount any kinda spindle too it, how far with a DTI does it deflect side ways when you lean on it, thats the factor that will largely govern if that will or will not work. How accuratly and smoothly that runs on its guide rails is also key to cutter life and the quality of the finished machined edges.

Your servo's if there 5" dia and 12" long will be a lot more than 1/4 hp, a 1/4hp servo is tiny, those will be nearer probably over the 1Kw mark. Servo's are getting ever more compact, don't diss smaller ones to you know what it is you really have there. Equally if you can get - afford replacement drives for them. This can be a major issue if the drives have sat unpowered for a long time as the capacitors in them don't like long rest periods and tend to fail violently on first power up do to break down in there internal insulating layer. Depending on age - exact make up just a few months can be a major issue there.

The whole HF issue flu-maxes a lot more people than you would believe, its not just the system, but also the rest of the building wireing in the area that can matter - introduce the HF into the control. Theres good reasons that HF start has fallen out of favor.

Dave, I'm familiar with that sized machine, having programmed one for a short time.

Unfortunately as Adama has eluded to, that beeg beeg gantry is slow to move.

While those machines get a plasma torch put on them, it's for 1/2" plate and above. Oxygen assist and other fancy tricks to get up to over 2" plate
(and using a 400 amp poser supply too).

Most of these gantries have multiple oxy torch stations hanging on their too.

Download the manual for you plasma power supply, and consult the speed charts,
to see what speed your trying to hit with the plat thickness you want to cut.

GUYS...

I'm not trying to de-engineer an already proven machine. This came out of a factory that has been using it to cut everything from 24ga to 1.25" plate- it has plenty of speed in this big gantry, at full-snot it can go from one end of it's 30' track to the other in under 4 seconds. Yes, it had capacity for multiple heads... plasma AND oxy-fuel. Yes, it ran both compressed air and oxygen, has two regulators and a solenoid to select. I'm not asking about power and HF problems, I know that road well enough.

I'm asking about TORCHES... two torches- one handheld, another machine-held, 80A range, that use same consumables. That's all.

Thermal Dynamics does NOT have a manual online for the PAK1000XR. They have one for the 1250. I Emailed them, and they confirmed, nothing on the 1000XR, nearest is the 1250.

I am currently running a newish Thermal Dynamics machine torch, and an older TD hand torch on a Pakmaster 75, a slightly smaller and older power supply. I used to run two torches on my previous setup that did share consumables, but found it not really that huge of a benefit. Generally, I run higher amperage consumables on the larger machine torch, and lighter duty stuff on the hand torch. I just have a plastic box, with dividers, and all the consumables are in there. I run different amperage consumables on the machine torch depending on material thickness, so I am already stocking a few different electrodes and tips as it is.

I wouldnt worry too much about having the same exact torch.

I ran an old Miller Spectrum 500 for years, starting in the early 90s, and, on that machine, I did actually go to the trouble of modifiying it to front panel switching between machine and hand torch. Those early plasma machines had big metal boxes with lots of space inside, so I added a panel mounted air valve, and big high voltage high amperage switches to switch back and forth between torches. It was easiest to have 2 switches and the air valve- so to go from one to another, you needed to change all 3 settings, but it took ten seconds, and worked great. You could build a little auxiliary switch box, and put all the wiring and plumbing in there, if you wanted.

On my newer setup, I havent been doing as much hand cutting so I just manually switch- on the Pakmaster, you change the air hose, the large multipin connector, and the ground, takes a couple minutes to do.

Now that ESAB owns both thermal dynamics, and victor, as well as their original esab line, I think its a good choice for torches- wide range of options, global availability, and decent customer service- my torch is oddball, being on a 1992 C&G machine, so it had to be specially ordered and built, from a Victor factory in Mexico, but while it took a month, it was easy enough to order and get. Yours may also be non-stock, given the age of the components and the HF. I would call ESAB, and pick their brains.

Thanks, Reis!

Okay, so the switching... sounds like you were using it with the supply in one operating position, just flip the switches to move to the other function. In my case (at least, for now), I'd be disconnecting the supply and hose, and rolling the machine, so a more practical solution (to me, anyway) would be a quick-disconnect for control, air, power and ground, hook on my hand torch and long ground lead, and wheel the machine to the other building or out to the driveway, then roll it back when done.

I've found a good used torch that's apparently from a slightly smaller PAK, I'll give that a try... haven't checked the consumables against the machine torch, but it came to me at 'the right price', so I've got a starting point anyway.

I considered quick disconnect- but- it would still have been pretty complicated for my older machine. Obviously, you could use quick disconnect fittings for the air line.
There are quick disconnect fittings for the electrical, and that wouldnt be too hard to rig up, assuming you were indeed using the same brand and type of machine and hand torch.
The problem would occur if you had different wiring needs for the hand versus machine torches. Usually the machine torch will have an additional set of wires for voltage sensing to control torch height, but you can just leave these unconnected when using a hand torch.

I think the easiest way to do this is the expensive way- buy a brand new machine torch and hand torch from the same manufacturer, which use the same pin-outs and wiring layout.
but a decent machine torch is easily $500 to $800, and a hand torch another few hundred- a grand, before you blink.

Exactly, its not about reenginering what you have, its about being realistic with what it can do, plasma tech has moved a lot over the last couple of decades, 20 year old equipment, gantries and such are going to be a massive let down cut quality and consumable wise than there newer counter parts.

FYI if your putting a newer control on it, by very definition you need to consider these issues. If you don't your going to be spending a lot more time chipping slag and dealing with edge quality issues than you have too. Yes it may well have worked just fine with the old machine torch, thats older technology, its why you can not get the consumables redily anymore, the world has moved on from then. The newer ones need and are all designed around the higher accelerations at the start of cuts and very much need the higher travel speeds.

On the quick disconnect front, its kinda common to have some jumpers or open pins in the hook up, a lot of the hyper-therm torches come with disconnects that said to my knowledge theirs not a standard in the plasma cutting game like there is with most MIG welding torches and there so called Euro connector.

adama said:

Exactly, its not about reenginering what you have, its about being realistic with what it can do, plasma tech has moved a lot over the last couple of decades, 20 year old equipment, gantries and such are going to be a massive let down cut quality and consumable wise than there newer counter parts.

FYI if your putting a newer control on it, by very definition you need to consider these issues. If you don't your going to be spending a lot more time chipping slag and dealing with edge quality issues than you have too. Yes it may well have worked just fine with the old machine torch, thats older technology, its why you can not get the consumables redily anymore, the world has moved on from then. The newer ones need and are all designed around the higher accelerations at the start of cuts and very much need the higher travel speeds."

Click to expand...

Making adjustments to motion control is what G-code is for. If the gantry cut fine using the 'old technology', and the 'new technology' can't cut as well as the 'old technology', then there's clearly something wrong with 'new'. It's a torch... there's a hundred-something volts at 80A coming TO it, and once burning, it will cut, and it'll do it a whole lot better, and a whole lot faster than my oxy-acetylene kit can freehand. It doesn't make a bit of difference wether the torch is in my hand, or on an old gantry, or a new one, it does what it does just the same.

This gantry will be doing a whole lot more than running this torch, and it will be doing it on a budget that I can afford.

adama said:

On the quick disconnect front, its kinda common to have some jumpers or open pins in the hook up, a lot of the hyper-therm torches come with disconnects that said to my knowledge theirs not a standard in the plasma cutting game like there is with most MIG welding torches and there so called Euro connector.

Click to expand...

It's just a connector, and I have connectors, and a soldering iron... no fear of working with either. In about a week, I'll be converting the power supply to 240v single phase, and I'll be using the handheld torch to cut apart an old railroad car that's blocking the progress of my shop construction project.

Thats just it, the NEW tech does not work slowly, the NEW tech confines the plasma jet tighter, this makes it significantly hotter, this heat melts the shit out of the edges of your work piece causing you rework if you don't move it fast enough. Optimal travel speed is the number one deciding factor in edge quality with plasma cutting. Please under stand were stressing this, not to make you spend more, or to show off, but so that you don't repeat the mistakes of others, your free to do what ever you wish, but if you don't want to spend the rest of your life grinding your cut parts you would do real well to hear us out. This is not shitting on you for running something old, this is a problem that has caught a lot of other people out and has significant real world costs associated with putting right something that can simply be minimized from the start.

Accelerating correctly and fast enough is what lets you plasma in near drilled hole quality holes in sub 1/2" materials, please do some more reading on this, it matters and it will let you cut better parts and save you a lot of work in the future.

When you get the hand torch running have a play and see how travel speed affects the cut, then maybe you will understand - believe us.

FYI hope you have north of 40 amps single phase supply to run that thing on single phase, to the best of my knowledge no one commercially offers a single phase plasma at a true 80 amps output.