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  1. #21
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    After watching several videos, 30-06 armor piercing ammunition will go through 3/8" AR 500 but does not get through 1/2" AR 500, I will let them know what my findings were and let them make a decision based on that, they said they were wanting to stop hand gun rounds when we originally started speaking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 72bwhite View Post
    why is it every one always wants to use thick steel plate.
    for bullet resistance

    hot tip those armored trucks that carry money around don't have steel plates
    on the sides.

    there are commercially available panels for just that.
    and they will be much easier to install no need to use a crane

    a few layers of corrugated steel can be quit effective also


    The FRP you are referring to doesn't take kindly to any forming whatsoever. You can create a curved panel by cutting the material into narrow strips, but then you risk defeating the protection required by UL752.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Portable Welder View Post
    Thanks Walter A, My steel suppliers buy direct from the mill, they easily sell a million lbs a day, so I'm comfortable with my source, I will definitely keep all the paper work associated with this job to verify that it is indeed AR500 the same way that I do with my structural bolts.
    I will be bending across the grain... I will use a 4" bottom die, when I purchased my dies I paid extra to have them heat treated on the wear surfaces, I hope that is sufficient when bending AR 500, I only have to bend the plate across about a 32" area so that wont be a problem tonnage wise.
    A couple more things to consider: If you have to add any holes they would be best to be burned or plasma cut. Drilling would have to be with carbide and you would encounter lots of broken tools. If you have to weld, this stuff does not weld very well plus the heat will change the material properties. We use a European variation of a plow bolt with a standard of DIN 604MU (the MU means "with nut")When we use this with T1 or AR400 plate we drill and C'Sink with Cobalt tooling. With AR500 we plasma a round hole and weld in a mild steel insert. For our wear plates we use an M12 size. I am not sure what other sizes are available. We buy from Metric and Multi-Standard.

    I only bring this up as we deal with the material every day.

    Walter

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portable Welder View Post
    After watching several videos, 30-06 armor piercing ammunition will go through 3/8" AR 500 but does not get through 1/2" AR 500, I will let them know what my findings were and let them make a decision based on that, they said they were wanting to stop hand gun rounds when we originally started speaking.
    Got your YouTube degree in armoring buildings. Youtube certified "findings".

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    My 98 with armor piercing 8mm military would punch 3/8" AR.. never tried 1/2"

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    Michigan buck, what is a 98, !!! Hand gun or Rifle.
    Walter A, that is great advise on cutting out a plug and installing a mild steel one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Portable Welder View Post
    Michigan buck, what is a 98, !!! Hand gun or Rifle.
    Walter A, that is great advise on cutting out a plug and installing a mild steel one.
    if you have to ask that question you are definitely not qualified to be advising

    Mauser 1898 the grand daddy of all bolt action rifles

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    Possible 3/8 AR bent to be like the side of 10" pipe might be the ticket...or just bent to be a V facing the shooter. perhaps a 15 or 20* angle.
    Shop I know of is making chest shields of 3/8 AR...wait it might be 1/2" I should be at the shop this week and so I will check. Shied maker gave us one to be used as a going target but we have not set it out or tried it yet. It should last long with hunting bullets.

    Don't have any armor piercing shells now..dont even know where or if they could be found. We even had tracers 8mm back in the 60s.
    Gills sporting goods had a barrel of 98s .. think they wee $12 each..some with matching and some made of any number parts.

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    72bwhite and Kustomisingkid, yes I get information from multiple sources, I have owned by business for the last 30 years and have been taking advice from people for the last 40 plus years.

    Thanks to Walter A and a few others for giving me a little insight for this job.

    If I was worried about liability I would go to work for someone, this is not a big deal job for me, its a little steel in a wall, we rebuild asphalt plants, concrete plants, FedEx, UPS, the power company and several other plants, yes, to you guys working out of your garage this might be a big deal..., I'm only putting steel behind a desk essentially, lets not over think this.

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    I'd subcontract it out to a company that knows how to do this.

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    Having had a little experience doing things like this, I found many things that do a great job protecting against small arms fire, and therefore offer the following conclusions:

    Stopping a bullet means shedding it's energy.

    Preventing a bullet from passing through some barrier, means losing all it's energy before it can make it through.

    Stopping lots of bullets, means making that barrier capable of maintaining it's structure, even after having done it's job many times already.

    Preventing a piece of armor from being pierced, means distributing the energy of a piercing projectile, over the largest possible surface.

    Making it recoverable, means absorbing the energy in such a way that the material order is not substantially affected (lost) in the process.

    Interestingly, a 4" thick lead wall, with a wood skin, does a really good job of stopping lead bullets...

    One of the most effective and clever bullet-stoppers I've ever built, is a wall made up of two 4x8 sheet of 3/4" plywood wall on 2x6 studs, jammed full of old telephone books, encyclopedias, and paperback novels... and two layers of corrugated steel screwed to the back. A 7.62x39 wouldn't make it through unless it was under 10 feet away. Use the same, with a piece of 1/4" A500, and you're set... because anything that makes it through the wood, paper, and wood, with enough energy to bounce off the tin, would just get stuck in the wall and become more of the absorptive mass.

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    If there is a chance this system could ever be actually be shot at you better not just be guessing based on some YouTube videos. I have a bunch of years building armor systems for tier two military suppliers on several different vehicle systems. I would definitely want to have the customer at least provide the NIJ threat level. I would also want to skip the AR and step up to a ballistically certified plate (46100 is the AR500 equivalent).

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    My knowledge of the mentioned steel is limited to only building structural members with it. I can not recall any of it ever being bent though. This is the only detail I would question or be curious about if it was not related to someones life. The bend-ability of the the steel and what happens to the grain structure of the steel once the bend is completed. Is it stressed or relaxed? Will the bullet pierce the metal? Will it still retain its ability to absorb pinpoint shock/stress? Some metals become work hardened after it passes a yield point or its memory is gone. I am thinking it would probably work fine, but just for watching ones own assets, maybe go to a 3/4" PL. and be on the safe side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by idacal View Post
    an ar10 308 will punch through 3/8s with the right bullet, close range. 3/8s thick targets that are shot at with ar style rifles are almost always swinging style when hit. you need someone else to take fall if something goes wrong at minimum some specs you can build to.
    Any 308 will punch through 3/8 platr with the right bullet. Doesn't matter if its from a black rifle or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Portable Welder View Post
    72bwhite and Kustomisingkid, yes I get information from multiple sources, I have owned by business for the last 30 years and have been taking advice from people for the last 40 plus years.

    Thanks to Walter A and a few others for giving me a little insight for this job.

    If I was worried about liability I would go to work for someone, this is not a big deal job for me, its a little steel in a wall, we rebuild asphalt plants, concrete plants, FedEx, UPS, the power company and several other plants, yes, to you guys working out of your garage this might be a big deal..., I'm only putting steel behind a desk essentially, lets not over think this.
    So, will this be part of your defense strategy? "let's not over think this"

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    So... the customer finally made the decision to go with the 3/8 AR 500 plate.
    Not only did I do some research, I also let my customer know where I found my research so they could make an informed decision based on reading several articles.
    This is a open area with a 4' tall door that if a gunman wants to kill all of them, all he has to do is step over the door and continue shooting them under the desk.

    The customer is fully aware that this plate may not stop high caliber armor piercing bullets.

    I do appreciate every ones advise, Regards.

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    The most effective bullet stopper is about 4ft of packed earth. I don't suppose rammed earth walls are going to be applicable here though?

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    I seem to recall something about the angle of the armour surface to the projectile's trajectory/impact making a great difference to the penetration. Maybe a nice wind chime built out of overlapped 6x6x1/2 angle hanging from one end?

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    Ill sell you 24 ply 24" by 24" sheets of kevlar from a bradley vehicle for 40$ a sheet. Ive got about 15. Just overlap them. That oughta do it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails kevlararmor.jpg  

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    I have some experience bending ar500 plate.
    I would caution you that bending was sketchy.
    I bent hundreds of parts total and had maybe a 15% failure rate. Failure meaning it split and shot parts. I did test bends on different lot numbers, did both directions to confirm grain it would just be random piece here or there. Just be extra cautious is all im saying.


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