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  1. #21
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    the kind of work your trying to do is fairly intense and complicated have you thought about purchasing a hortizonal drill thats tooled up then sell after your done? something like this 2 Ditch Witch JT92L Directional Drill 1 14 Original Hours | eBay if you can push a 1"3/8s pipe a 160' in with a backhoe I would definitely be spooked sleeping at night. something like a mayhew junior thread is close to your size requirements

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirElliott View Post
    I have experience as an excavator operator and the owner of the company has agreed to help. He has a ton of experience. I understand the concern, Please read the articles I have attached in this and other replies.

    The pipe bending has been identified as an issue. There are several ways to manage it. The best seems to be fabricating a pipe gripper that can be moved along the length, We will be fabricating one. They were also able to guide the pipe with a larger guide pipe and with timbers.

    Please take a look at this article. This process had been done successfully in different parts of the world.

    http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs...nal_Report.pdf

    The next step in mitigation is cutoff french drains across the slope. At some points the drains will need to be 30 feet deep. The terrain is steep. The soil is wet. The trenches will be 200' long. Multiple trench boxes will be needed. That is a disaster. We plan to use biopolymer trenching techniques. That is going to be expensive and will require a grant.
    I read the paper and agree that in principle it does work however there are some issues that aren't apparent. The research paper indicates that they were able to install up to 60ft. of drain per day and this was with an average of a 50ft. push. Now realize that the difficulty of the push is going to increase exponentially with the length. They research group was also using a flat plate as a pipe cap. This has some advantages but also pushes harder then a conical cap arrangement.

    If you install the drain filed at the rate that the crew in the paper did, it will take 500 to 1000 days. I don't think you have that kind of time or machine availability. The poor production rate tells me that this method is not as easy as what is explained in the paper. I don't disagree with the general method but for the amount of drain field you are going to need, you really need a dedicated pusher that is simple to use and fast.

    The research papers design for the pusher block and collet is a rather standard approach but it does have a practical limit of how much gripping force can be transmitted into the pipe versus how much force is actually required. The question is, will this collet have enough gripping force to get you to 150 ft.

    Another important fact to realize is that according to the paper there have been a total of 8600ft. installed with this method in various places. Your project is potentially requiring up to 75000ft. of drain. That is almost 10 times the total installed to date. What works as a research effort often does not hold up in the real world. I am not disagreeing that the drain won't drain but I very strongly feel that the installation method is seriously lacking.

    I understand that the cost of this is difficult to swallow but understand that all of the advice that you have received has been free. The point I'm trying to make is that even the engineers are free so they don't necessarily have any skin in the game. I agree with their diagnosis of the problem but I am not convinced that this method as presented is practical at the installation level.

    It is also important to understand that as you push the pipe, it is going to follow the slip plane interface. This is probably not where you ideally want the wick drain located and depending on soil conditions the pipe might actually try to climb out of the ground beyond the 75ft length of push.

    I don't want to sound cynical but I have dealt with enough governmental civil engineers in my life to understand that there are a lot of mediocre civil engineers mixed in with a few really talented engineers. The trouble is that ultimately it is your money, your house, and ultimately your life that is at risk and they are at an arms length away on this. Since you are doing the project yourself, there is no one telling a bad engineer that they are freaking nuts and that We're not going to do that.

    What I would suggest is to construct the push block and collet as it is designed understanding that this method may or may not work out as needed. If this method of pipe pushing is not practical then I would take the existing push block system and modify it for becoming a rod pusher. Ditch Witch makes an excellent one that is basically a log splitter with a couple of large hydraulic cylinders instead of the traditional single cylinder the splitter uses. This can be asily copied for a few thousand dollars in materials.

    As far as the cutoff trench as has been recommended. I would not open cut this due to the depth and terrain. Vemeer makes an excellent line of directional drills that can go up to 24in. in diameter and 1000 ft. in length. If a contractor with Vemeer's large drill were hired for this project, they could probably put a series of horizontal bores in a vertical layer pattern that would be almost as effective as a full cutoff trench and would only cost a fraction of what on open excavation and having to pull the trench boxes, especially for the small diameter of drain that would be needed. They could literally do this project in a couple of days.

    It is difficult to have a trench that can be safely worked in less than 24in. at the bottom and in this situation you will likely need the boxes all the way to the bottom which means you will be at least 48in.-60in. in trench width at the bottom. This is a tremendous amount of dirt to move and will be immensely expensive. It is also important to note that a lot of these grant projects are based on cost sharing by the owner so sometimes least expensive and yet work is not understood at the engineer's level.

    I really wish you luck going forward with this project but please understand everyone's concern with this type of project.

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    Herr Elliot, "Sir"?

    Ziggy is making seriously good sense. You, sir? Are rationalizing.

    Cost you less and have a better chance of beating Mother Nature's clock, to start scouting a new place to put down roots - literally as far as orchards go - and figure out just how much of the value in yer house can be taken away as recyclable materials.

    Think that impossible?

    Ask a former Syrian who had to start-over with nought but the clothes on his back. Not a resident of Pompeii.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by E.F. Thumann View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what is the approx grade of this slide area? Are we talking "shallow and unnerving to see things slide sideways", or "if it goes, everything slides off a 250ft cliff"? Keep in mind, most people killed in slides are crushed when they are sleeping, so if it does go, there may be no practical way to escape. I'm not trying to be dramatic, I was a home builder for a while, my point is: remember that keeping a house isn't worth you life.
    It's big, 2,100' long, 500' wide. The toe of the slide rises about 175' up, at about a 60 degree angle. Above this, the slope changes to an average about 17 percent in variable angled, hummocky terrain. Then it rises steeply again at about a 30 percent angle to the headscarp.

    Seven borings were placed in March. Three of the borings were sheared within 3 days. The depth of the slide varies between 15 and 35 feet. Multiple survey points were established and those sites are shot with GPS every three days unless it rains. Rain triggers a survey. The slide has moved 1.6 feet since March 17th.

    We know that there is a lot of water that moves through the slide area. That water will pool at a couple of spots on the slope. This has been one of the wettest winters on record. LiDAR images taken a few weeks ago show it is an old landslide area.

    A catastrophic failure due to a rain event or a seismic shake could send the slide into the narrow valley below. Just underneath the toe are residences that are occupied. They have been advised to leave. They did for a couple of weeks but have returned.

    The narrow valley would fill with debris blocking the road and damming the creek that runs on the valley floor. The depth of the valley blockage could exceed 35'. Water backing up behind the debris would eventually cause the debris dam to fail sending mud and water down the valley. A similar event occurred in 1925 killing 14.

    My home is not in the slide path. I have to cross the slide 2 times every time I leave the house. Since the water main fractured many times over the past couple of years, it has been decommissioned. We have not had running water since March 17th. Electric service is underground. Power has been shut off several times. When the ground is actively moving that service is cut. A temporary 60,000 volt cable is laying on the ground. When they cut the underground service, they energize the cable on the ground.

    Three of the homes in the slide area have been condemned. There is no insurance, no disaster assistance.

    We know the possibilities, some of the residents worked the Oso landslide which is less than 100 miles from here.

    Photos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    I read the paper and agree that in principle it does work however there are some issues that aren't apparent. The research paper indicates that they were able to install up to 60ft. of drain per day and this was with an average of a 50ft. push. Now realize that the difficulty of the push is going to increase exponentially with the length. They research group was also using a flat plate as a pipe cap. This has some advantages but also pushes harder then a conical cap arrangement.

    If you install the drain filed at the rate that the crew in the paper did, it will take 500 to 1000 days. I don't think you have that kind of time or machine availability. The poor production rate tells me that this method is not as easy as what is explained in the paper. I don't disagree with the general method but for the amount of drain field you are going to need, you really need a dedicated pusher that is simple to use and fast.

    The research papers design for the pusher block and collet is a rather standard approach but it does have a practical limit of how much gripping force can be transmitted into the pipe versus how much force is actually required. The question is, will this collet have enough gripping force to get you to 150 ft.

    Another important fact to realize is that according to the paper there have been a total of 8600ft. installed with this method in various places. Your project is potentially requiring up to 75000ft. of drain. That is almost 10 times the total installed to date. What works as a research effort often does not hold up in the real world. I am not disagreeing that the drain won't drain but I very strongly feel that the installation method is seriously lacking.

    I understand that the cost of this is difficult to swallow but understand that all of the advice that you have received has been free. The point I'm trying to make is that even the engineers are free so they don't necessarily have any skin in the game. I agree with their diagnosis of the problem but I am not convinced that this method as presented is practical at the installation level.

    It is also important to understand that as you push the pipe, it is going to follow the slip plane interface. This is probably not where you ideally want the wick drain located and depending on soil conditions the pipe might actually try to climb out of the ground beyond the 75ft length of push.

    I don't want to sound cynical but I have dealt with enough governmental civil engineers in my life to understand that there are a lot of mediocre civil engineers mixed in with a few really talented engineers. The trouble is that ultimately it is your money, your house, and ultimately your life that is at risk and they are at an arms length away on this. Since you are doing the project yourself, there is no one telling a bad engineer that they are freaking nuts and that We're not going to do that.

    What I would suggest is to construct the push block and collet as it is designed understanding that this method may or may not work out as needed. If this method of pipe pushing is not practical then I would take the existing push block system and modify it for becoming a rod pusher. Ditch Witch makes an excellent one that is basically a log splitter with a couple of large hydraulic cylinders instead of the traditional single cylinder the splitter uses. This can be asily copied for a few thousand dollars in materials.

    As far as the cutoff trench as has been recommended. I would not open cut this due to the depth and terrain. Vemeer makes an excellent line of directional drills that can go up to 24in. in diameter and 1000 ft. in length. If a contractor with Vemeer's large drill were hired for this project, they could probably put a series of horizontal bores in a vertical layer pattern that would be almost as effective as a full cutoff trench and would only cost a fraction of what on open excavation and having to pull the trench boxes, especially for the small diameter of drain that would be needed. They could literally do this project in a couple of days.

    It is difficult to have a trench that can be safely worked in less than 24in. at the bottom and in this situation you will likely need the boxes all the way to the bottom which means you will be at least 48in.-60in. in trench width at the bottom. This is a tremendous amount of dirt to move and will be immensely expensive. It is also important to note that a lot of these grant projects are based on cost sharing by the owner so sometimes least expensive and yet work is not understood at the engineer's level.

    I really wish you luck going forward with this project but please understand everyone's concern with this type of project.
    I understand and appreciate the concern. It is a horrible situation. We are confident that we have looked at all of the options.

    The geotechnical engineers are from two very respected firms. One of the engineers is a senior VP with an international geotech firm. The other engineer is one of the owners of a Washington firm. He was the geotech engineer on my home. They both expect to do future work on this project and others in the area.

    Horizontal wick drains are a viable option. I only posted one of several articles on the technique. These drains are used when the slopes are still active The drains can be placed much quicker than the original article. That research was conducted by students doing a research program. The 150' depth is a worse case. Most drains will be much shorter. We have one location that might require a longer drain. I will try to create a conical wick anchor.

    Placing horizontal drains is not an exact science. Placement is as much art as science. http://inside.mines.edu/~psanti/pape...0the%20Art.pdf

    The cutoff drains are going to be nasty. We are exploring a process of excavation called biopolymer slurry trenching. It looks promising. Its similar to slurry trenching except that the slurry can be dissolved. I will explore the horizontal bore method you suggested.

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    Call Strider constuction in Bellingham at866 855 5600.
    the have a vertical bore dewatering system they put in above the wet area to cut off water inflow

    hope this mite help.

    Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirElliott View Post
    We know the possibilities, some of the residents worked the Oso landslide which is less than 100 miles from here.
    I admire your dedication. But your problem is not just geological or technical.

    At base, it is an economic one. Initial placement of 'wick' drains a mere first-stage band-aid. Maintenance and improvements must follow, and for the long-haul.

    There are just not enough folks with enough value at risk, nor gain to be realized - individually or cumulatively - to cover the whole-life-cycle costs, nor to inspire others to do so.

    By comparison, relatively rich and VERY densely populated Hong Kong ISLAND alone has some 80 THOUSAND slopes in their database under active monitoring and rather costly management. They..can afford that.

    Resistance to relocation is not an option when the people are as 'portable' as they have been for Brazilians of years more cheaply. Most folks in Nawth America move for other reasons or for NO apparent reason more than once in a lifetime as it is.

    Yes - 'personally' that looks like borderline disaster. Globally, you have plenty of company. Far too much of it of late.

    Even so - folks tend to find more help relocating and readjusting than they find trying to boil the ocean or tame a landslide.

    It will be worse-yet if the lot of you go broke and run down to despair and exhaustion fighting first the geological reality, then still have to move and deal with that stress, after all. And it sounds as if you do not even have 100% buy-in / support from those at the worst risk. Not with money, anyway.

    Get 'Plan B' underway. Pension is portable even if house is not.

    Otherwise, it won't likely be the the mud as buries you. More likely it will be the exhaustion of you and your resources forever-gone into the unending battle itself.

    Mother Nature and her geoforming cycles are seriously persistent bitches on a time scale beyond normal human ken. She ain't anywhere near done messing with the Pacific Coast.

    Nor the East.

    Allegheny once flowed North into Lake Erie. Parts of its deep Aquifer still do - had to be stemmed so Corps of Engineers could build a dam and have it survive.

    New River and Africa's Rift Valley were once connected. Appalachians were once taller than the Hindu Kush are now.

    SHE ain't quit. Sometimes WE must.

    Bill

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    I had a few geology courses in university Bill- loved the subject.
    For a ecology student they quickly shifted to paleontology.

    It always struck me how the long process relates to the critters and how geologic opportunities leave some of the best fossil deposits sometimes augmented by the critters themselves.
    There is a slow drama to the subject which also has the rapid changes.

    Interesting challenge:

    http://inside.mines.edu/~psanti/pape...k%20Drains.pdf
    What strikes me from this paper is the variability of site conditions and how they are likely to mutate over time as soils shift.
    Not a clear subject for a attack plan..

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    If you are not fighting artisian springs, your problem is not to get the water out of the hillside. Your problem is to prevent the water from getting into the hillside in the first place. Diversion terraces to prevent the problem are a whole lot cheaper than underground borings to assist the water in its outflow after it is already in the wrong place.

    Move your line of thinking uphill and prevent the problem from occurring.

    Otherwise, Monarchist has the best read on the entire situation. There used to be glaciers where I now set. Climate change has been going on for a lot longer than many will give credit. You will run out of money before mother nature runs out of rain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    Move your line of thinking uphill and prevent the problem from occurring.

    Otherwise, Monarchist has the best read on the entire situation.
    Agree interception.

    Rest is not entirely academic. 1960's me late Dad oversaw putting 100,000 tons of grout into East Branch Clarion Dam trying to stem the subsurface aquifer that was threatening its integrity. Railway spur had to be run to bring it in, monster batch-plant erected on-site as well. They had to switch to a French-developed method that started with injecting balls of molten asphalt down-bore to slow the current enough that the concrete wasn't just immediately washed away.

    Had to do much the same to build the 'Allegheny River Reservoir' a few years later.

    Good training. Costly as Hell on even the Corps of Engineers massive federal pocketbook.

    Even that is never deep enough. They KNEW what New Orleans NEEDED.

    Katrina arrived before the funding did.

    Rest is unpleasant history for far too many folk. Doesn't need repeating on a mudslide, even on a small scale.

    JM2CW

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    If you are not fighting artesian springs, your problem is not to get the water out of the hillside. Your problem is to prevent the water from getting into the hillside in the first place. Diversion terraces to prevent the problem are a whole lot cheaper than underground borings to assist the water in its outflow after it is already in the wrong place.

    Move your line of thinking uphill and prevent the problem from occurring.

    Otherwise, Monarchist has the best read on the entire situation. There used to be glaciers where I now set. Climate change has been going on for a lot longer than many will give credit. You will run out of money before mother nature runs out of rain.
    Uphill mitigation is a part of the mitigation plan. Some of the low hanging fruit has been completed. Things like rerouting drainage. Changing irrigation systems. Relining reservoirs. A major project is sealing the roadside drainage ditches where they pass over the slide with a product called Smart Ditch http://www.smartditch.com/ . Water was entering the scarps to the point that no water made it past the slide area. All of that stormwater runoff was recharging the slide. A cutoff trench drain will be placed above the headscarp.

    I'm afraid I don't agree with Monarchist that mitigation is a losing proposition. Certainly there are homes that need to be removed and then restrictions placed on the property deeds. These homes and lots are in the slide and have been damaged. The structures have been condemned. Mitigation is needed to keep the road in place and protect the homes that are not directly in the slide zone. The road is the only access to the homes and orchard above the slide. The utilities run under the roadway.

    The other homes, like mine, are safe. My home is outside the slide and LiDAR shows no old slide. When I built the house I hired a geotech company to design and supervise a mitigation strategy to protect the house.

    It is a steep lot. The mitigation includes several elements. Some of those like soils compaction and retaining walls require no ongoing maintenance.

    One of the requirements includes controlling any water that enters the site. It includes capturing all the water from the roof. It also collects water entering from a small uphill area into french drains behind retaining walls. Runoff from the long driveway is captured. All of the water is collected in an underground tank where its used for irrigation and fire protection during wildland fire season. The system requires maintenance. The gutters and downspouts need to be cleared of debris. The french drains need to be checked and cleared of any roots. The catch basins need to be emptied of material separated from the runoff.

    Your suggesting that maintenance of mitigation infrastructures is overly burdensome defies the reality of living in structures. Even a lot of caves require some mitigation to keep them open.

    To throw away an entire neighborhood and an orchard is an over reaction. In addition to the homes and orchard in the slide area,the slide overhangs a road that is the only access to almost a hundred homes and farms. It also is the only road to a ski area that is part of the economic engine that drives the community.

    Groups of homeowners maintain mitigation infrastructures all the time. Even before the slide, our homeowners association is required to maintain a stormwater system. Most, if not all communities, require stormwater management. Some of those systems can be quite complicated and require yearly expense. The total mitigation system planned shouldn't be more complicated than a large stormwater system.

    Please understand that I came seeking information on fabricating drill pipe. I appreciate the suggestions and comments about other issues on the slide, but I think we have strayed to far from the topic of fabrication of drill pipe connectors.

    The slide is a big complicated event that has lots of moving parts. In this county they are dealing with 11 other events, none as serious as this slide. In addition wildfires over the past couple of years have created burn scars that have created mudslides.

    I have offered more information on the slide in an attempt to explain what we doing with regards to ONE part of the problem. It is not been all inclusive data dump. Huge chunks of information have not been posted here. I have only touched on some of the technical issues. I have not gone into issues like politics or dealing with multiple government agencies. I have not discussed public vs. private property and who can and should do what. Those issues can be just as challenging, maybe more.

    At some point I have to get back to solving the real problems on the ground. I have read the posts, and passed on some of the information offered to the engineers.

    At this point we are going to proceed with testing wick drains placed with pipe. We are also going to try a mole. The directional drilling maybe something we try if we are able to find someone local.

    Right now there simply isn't any more money. In the future we may receive funds from grants that we have applied for. The funding process is long, and there is no guarantee of funding. The earliest any mitigation construction funded by any grant would be late fall, early winter.

    I still need to fabricate pipe connections.

    Thank you,
    Elliott

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    Quote Originally Posted by idacal View Post
    the kind of work your trying to do is fairly intense and complicated have you thought about purchasing a hortizonal drill thats tooled up then sell after your done? something like this 2 Ditch Witch JT92L Directional Drill 1 14 Original Hours | eBay if you can push a 1"3/8s pipe a 160' in with a backhoe I would definitely be spooked sleeping at night. something like a mayhew junior thread is close to your size requirements
    How would that machine be able to get the wick drain into position?

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    Thanks Gary. I will call them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    Herr Elliot, "Sir"?

    Ziggy is making seriously good sense. You, sir? Are rationalizing.

    Cost you less and have a better chance of beating Mother Nature's clock, to start scouting a new place to put down roots - literally as far as orchards go - and figure out just how much of the value in yer house can be taken away as recyclable materials.

    Think that impossible?

    Ask a former Syrian who had to start-over with nought but the clothes on his back. Not a resident of Pompeii.

    Bill
    I'm glad you were able to start over. The situation here is very different. There is a lot you aren't aware of that affects the choice of staying vs. moving.

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    Thanks for the info. May I send you a message with more questions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirElliott View Post
    I'm glad you were able to start over. The situation here is very different. There is a lot you aren't aware of that affects the choice of staying vs. moving.
    Oh, not I. Or not so's I'd count.

    Friends.

    Lots of them. 'Most' actually.

    The Levant. The Sind. Armenia. Other Sov Bloc. The Balkans. Syria. Rhodesia. Sewth Efrica, Tonga, Nigeria. All sides of Sri Lanka's long train-wreck. Most of LATAM. Even French, British, Oz, Kiwi's, Italians, Danes, Swiss, Canadians, and ...Yew-Ess-Ay Americans who've had cause to scarper.

    Byproduct of a long 'expat' career'. I'm told I was conceived in Corvallis, OR... but have never returned to it.

    The going gets tough, the tough get going.

    Never yet met any of the above sleeping under a bridge, either. Some of 'em have their names on serious-large buildings... and the banks, telecoms, gas, trading, or electric companies HQ'ed inside of 'em.

    Hong Kong was built on refugees - not all of them of Chinese ethnicity. Not many of them starting still young.

    So was Virginia.

    Process hasn't ceased yet. Three of my immediate - and appreciated - good neighbours came from El Salvador, and recently.

    Probably not one single move in that entire list as didn't involve riches left behind and pain carried-with.

    "Prevailing, regardless" anywhere and anywhen in time is a major part of what identifies us as human rather than a poorly-clad skinny failure at being an ape.

    Bill

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    I went back to your original post and read the article you posted with it. they have a picture of a flush joint thread I dont know the official name of it. I have some of that pipe in the original picture in sched 80 1.5" pipe size I purchased it for a project and haven't used it in a while just sitting out there getting used up for projects. don't have any certs with it I can give measurements or sell this stuff freight would be bad though
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_1563.jpg   img_1564.jpg  

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    What kind of "pipe" are you talking about? Schedule 80 black pipe or drill pipe? There is a big difference. I don't understand why you are trying to reinvent threaded joints. Not trying to be a smart ass just trying to understand what you are trying to do. I am a directional driller by trade, and I build all my own down hole tooling. If I understood more about the product you are trying to instal I could probably figure a way to get it in there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by idacal View Post
    I went back to your original post and read the article you posted with it. they have a picture of a flush joint thread I dont know the official name of it. I have some of that pipe in the original picture in sched 80 1.5" pipe size I purchased it for a project and haven't used it in a while just sitting out there getting used up for projects. don't have any certs with it I can give measurements or sell this stuff freight would be bad though
    I havent been on a core-drilling rig since summer of '61, but.. that joint looks awfully dern close to what was on our strings, so 'schedule 80' might not be the whole story? You bought this used, right?

    Bill

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    For installation once you find your joint you need to look into pipe ramming. Much higher chance of working over brute force pushing.


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